Some thoughts on slash

[andrewducker]

Slash is a subject that causes incredibly strong emotional reactions in people. Having engaged in numerous discussions about this, I've been thinking about why this might be, partially because it keeps cropping up on my friends list and partially so that I can get something vaguely final down in words and stop it going round in my head.

I'll be taking my definition of slash as 'Fiction written by fans of a work in which characters who are not canonically gay are written with the assumption that they are'. I would like to point out in advance that this isn't intended to come out either in favour of, or against slash. I firmly believe that people have the right to freedom of speech, and if they choose to write slash then that is their prerogative. I'm merely interested in why slash affects people the way it does, and why it's previously caused the reaction in me that it has.

Now, some people claim that they merely find the idea of slash to be a waste of time, but people waste time in many thousands of ways, and most people have nowhere near the amount of emotional reaction to golf that they do to slash. This argument is therefore easily discounted.

Slash has a tendency mocked in a juvenile "Ewww, that's gross" manner which would tend to indicate that the mocker finds gay sex to be intrinsically gross. This could, indeed, be a major source of the objections people have. It should be noted, however, that this doesn't automatically indicate a homophobic intent - people who aren't interested in sex tend to find the whole area of sexuality pretty icky - only changing this feeling when the instinct to engage in it overcomes them. Without the urge to engage in particular sexual acts, it's entirely possible that those acts still cause the same reactions - a pointer in this direction can be gained from the fact that many gay men find the idea of heterosexual sex somewhat disturbing.

However, this cannot the only reason. After all, I have had no problem with homosexual characters and situations in other works of fiction where they were intrinsic parts (most recently The Adventures of Kavalier and Clay, where one of the major characters has his life grimly affected by the repressive attitudes towards homosexuality in 1930s America), but I have still had a negative reaction to slash. Nor can it be purely because most slash is erotica - there are many, many sites out there specialising in erotica and while there are people out there who do react negatively to gay porn, it's not something that I encounter nearly as often as people's reaction to slash.

People have an almost personal reaction to slash - as if some part of them had been violated. I believe the only way to explain this is to look at the way that people react to fiction and the characters within. People form emotional connections with the characters in their fiction, along with internalised ideas of who they are and how they behave. We feel (to a certain extent) as if they know them as people. After all, why would people watch most TV shows if they didn’t care about the characters and in some way empathise with them. When these characters then behave in ways that are perceived as uncharacteristic, people feel as if you’re portraying their friends in manner which is just plain wrong. The reaction here is probably somewhat similar to that evoked in horror movies where the characters are replaced by someone (or something) that acts almost, but not quite, the same as the original person – a feeling of unease and wrongness.

When we watched the last episode of Angel, green_amber was extremely upset at the act of one character, when they shot another one. She felt emotionally betrayed by the act – that character would _never_ act in that way. Never mind that the character doesn’t actually exist, or that the correct act for a fictional character is whatever the writer chooses for them to do, the way that the character had been written felt so wrong to her that she became quite irate at the way it was portrayed. I believe that it’s this reaction that is seen when most people encounter slash-fiction.

The question remains, however, why does homosexual sex seem so out of character for people that they have this strong reaction? It is, of course, not just possible but likely that there is some latent homophobia in the reaction – Kirk and Spock are heroes, manly men and gallant adventurers, thus obviously not homosexual. The fact that real-life adventurers and ‘manly men’ such as Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar had homosexual relationships is beside the point – surely Kirk and Spock wouldn’t do such a thing!

This reaction is seems obviously homophobic. If you don’t have a problem with homosexuality, why do you have a problem with your heroes engaging in it? But this response seems oddly simplistic – after all, the reader may not have a negative response to characters originally written as homosexuals (although there aren’t many of those about to have encountered). And if, after all, the character has never been shown to have any homosexual leanings, surely assuming their heterosexuality is perfectly reasonable?

Which is where the other part of the puzzle comes from – personal identification. People don’t just like Kirk – they want to be him, delivering two-fisted Kirk Justice, saving planets and kissing green-skinned women. They want to embrace the whole Kirk way of life. Suddenly discovering that this also means embracing Mr Spock comes as a bit of a shock. It’s as if the slash is telling them that _they_ are homosexual.

And again we come back to asking – if these people aren’t homophobic, why can’t they identify with people who are homosexual? If, after all, we can identify with people who are balding, a bit tubby around the middle and Speak!…Like!…This! then surely we can identify with someone who has sex with men? The answer seems to be that none of those other things seem as intrinsic to our personalities as our sexual identity is – people can base huge decisions about their lives (or, indeed, their whole lives) on their sexual identity, it’s something they care deeply about, and in the majority of cases seem to have little control over. Sexuality seems to be something you are, not something you do, and thus when made into an overt part of a character is too prominent to simply glide past.

This overtness also seems distinctive to slash – while I have encountered a few instances of heterosexual Trek fanfic, it seems much, much rarer. The occasional kiss or ellipsis seems to be all that fans require in the way of sexual content. It’s possible that most people don’t want to think of their heroes explicitly sexually _at all_, and that this also contributes to their reaction.

So the answer seems to be that slash takes characters we emapthise with and/or identify with and changes the depiction of them to act overtly in a way that many of the people encountering it find impossible to empathise/identify with. It’s likely that the strongest reactions (that aren’t merely coming from actual homophobes) will come from those people who are unused to thinking about their role-models in a sexual way at all, let alone in a sexual way that they themselves do not feel any affinity towards. Those people that have less of an emotional attachment to heterosexuality, or who care less about fictional characters will have a correspondingly lower negative reaction to it.

The question remains – why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

Comments

[onceupon.livejournal.com]

What a fabulous and thinky essay.

The question remains – why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

My first answer, my flip answer, is both a bit simplistic and probably more true than people like to admit:

Just as many men are aroused at the idea of two women together, a lot of chicks dig the idea of hot monkey sex between two guys.

Of course, while it's socially acceptable to be turned on by two women, it's a bit more taboo to be aroused by the homosexual male sexual act. Slash is a place where it's okay to think about Wolverine and Cyclops making up naked after one of their spats.

There's also the idea that in our current state of cultural conditioning, men -- straight men -- simply aren't programmed to accept, much less get creative about, the idea of the erotic value of homosexual male sex. They (men conditioned by the predominant cultural attitiudes of our day) are taught that Playboy and threesomes with two women are what porn is supposed to be about. Slash is a bit outside of their sphere.

But it most certainly also has a lot to do with the percentage of the population who is most encouraged to write just for fun. Our cultural attitudes dictate that if a man is going to do something, it's going to be for a profit, there's going to be some benefit for it. As a result, you don't often see men writing casually, with no intent of "real" publication. Women are trained to be closet writers, given diaries as children, encouraged to write secrets and wishes and dreams. Women, who traditionally do better in writing and English classes, are often better trained to be casual writers as well. They are the ones -- as a group (I'm not bringing this down to the individual level, because anything goes on that level) -- that are best trained to do something like slash.

[andrewducker]

I can totally go for the monkey-love idea.

And there are many men who write for fun. And very few who actually make any money out of it. And about 15 who make a living.

[theferrett.livejournal.com]

Actually, my reaction to slash is not because I'm a homo-hater, but because I hate what I perceive to be bad characterization. Like your bad username tagged friend, I rail against the characterization I see in the actual canonical scripts - so why should I be different when it comes to slash, which tends to push the boundaries even further?

Sexual choice is fairly integral to someone's character, but as I've said usually what I find distressing is that the slash I've seen (and I'm told there's some that's Not Like That) reduces all same-sex friendships to "They want to get into each other's pants." The idea that all friendship, regardless of orientation, is based on sexual attraction is one that personally drives me crazy. Ask me how I felt when Mulder and Scully started makin' it on the X-Files. Gah.

I don't have much of an attachment to heterosexuality, but I do have an attachment to fidelity of character. I think what you're actually saying is, "Those who believe that heterosexuality or homosexuality is a reasonably-firm choice will have a negative reaction, whereas those who believe that everyone's bisexual and thus could fuck anyone at any time under the right circumstances will not have a problem."

[andrewducker]

Yeah, I've commented elsewhere about the unwarranted sexualisation of relationships.

I didn't see any reason for the bit in ROTK where Elrond basically tells Aragorn that he has to stop Sauron or Arwen will die. Because saving the world isn't a good enough reason - he has to be doing it for his girlfriend!

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

Women are reputed to prefer text erotica/pornography/term of choice to images, which might have something to do with this. Not all slash is erotica/porn etc, but even if a significant chunk is, this'd affect it, I'd imagine.

[dapperscavenger.livejournal.com]

Well, duh.

Two hot guys getting it on is HOT. What about this don't you get?

[onceupon.livejournal.com]

Totally!

[pisica.livejournal.com]

I HATE GOLF SOOOOOO MUCH! THE NEXT PERSON I SEE WITH A NINE-IRON IS GOING TO HAVE IT WRAPPED AROUND THEIR NECK!

;)

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I hate brussels sprouts. The next person I see eating them, especially if they look as if they're enjoying them, is going to get ranted at, at length, about how horrible they are.

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

To raise a second point, do you like fan fiction?

If you don't like fan fiction at all, then slash fiction will hardly appeal. And many of the people who object to slash -also- have an objection to fan fictiom (me, for example), and so are hardly judging it on the content, whether heterosexual, homosexual or variants thereof.

[andrewducker]

Only badly-written fan fiction.

I mean, I liked Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, and that was just fanfic given the stamp of authority.

[lilitufire.livejournal.com]

I haven't read that much, but one of the few bits I've read is some Dark is Rising slash. That disturbed me because the characters will always be from 9 - 13 in my eyes and it seemed vaguely paedophilic for them to be getting it on. I don't think it would have matter if it had been Barney and Bran or Jane and Will, to be honest. I guess that's a reaction not unlike the Angel scenario.

[mhari.livejournal.com]

This was interesting, thanks.

I write fanfic of all sorts, largely slash these days but also het and gen (non-romantic). And I realized the other day that I tend to look for interest in slash as a marker of whether I think I will get along with someone. Which is really rather weird, since I like lots of things besides teh hott imaginary mansex. But I figure that a self-proclaimed slash fan is unlikely to be a) a homophobe or b) a person who thinks fanfic is a concoction of Satan, two types with which I do not get along at all, so it's shorthand in a way.

And then, and I'm getting to the relevant bit here, I started thinking about the converse: that I am likely to have a knee-jerk initial aversion to someone who comes out and says they don't like slash -- even though I know perfectly well that there are people who don't like it just because it's not the kind of thing they like to read, not because they've got something against it.

And I know this how? Firstly 'cos I know people like that, and secondly because there are things it hurts me to think of slashing, even when I can see exactly why other people do it. Like LotR -- I read that in junior high, and it was a huge influence on me, and hobbitslash is just -- augh, my childhood! Even though I can totally see it.

All of which is a roundabout way of saying that I think you've come closer to it than anyone I have yet seen with this: "the strongest reactions ... will come from those people who are unused to thinking about their role-models in a sexual way at all".

[heron61.livejournal.com]

This overtness also seems distinctive to slash – while I have encountered a few instances of heterosexual Trek fanfic, it seems much, much rarer.

Actually, there is a hell of a lot of het fanfic, and like slash it mostly focuses on non-cannonical character pairings. I don't think that there is much of it in ST fandom, but there certainly is in the La Femme Nikita, X-Men, and Smallville fandoms (and I'm told that there is much het fic in Harry Potter fandom.

Given that this sort of fanfiction has approximately the same writing quality as slash (ie ranging from excellent (rare) to eyebleedingly bad (far too common) I'm guessing that a lot of the negative reaction to slash is ingrained homophobia, especially since slash both causes more and louder reactions than het fic. As yonmei mentions, the outcry in Buffy fandom (at least in the US) over Willow and Tara being in love was fairly impressive.

[dejla.livejournal.com]

Well, non-canonical pairings tended to be non-canonical because many of the episodic shows didn't show the characters as having sexual relationships with each other. And that was usually because they wanted to be able to repeat episodes without having to worry about continuity. Or because they were afraid the viewers might not watch the show if their preferred character got a permanent partner -- as opposed to something temporary which could then end badly and unload a lot more angst on the preferred character.

[dejla.livejournal.com]

Why are so many of the slash writers women? Well, that used to be because the majority of fanfic writers were women. And that was because the majority of media fen, as opposed to literary science-fiction fandom, were women.

Other than that, I'd guess because a lot of women writers are interested in emotion and/or character. And because they're inserting whatever they feel is lacking in either the characters in the show or in the universe of the show.

Some slash I read and like. A lot of it I see as OOC. Personally, I'd rather have a plot than a tab A fits in slot whatever story. I don't read a book or watch a move/tv show/play because I identify with anyone in it -- I read it because the writer or the actor is able to create a virtual world for me for however long it takes to complete the piece.

But that's what I want out of it. YMMV.

It's the sex

[orange852.livejournal.com]

And again we come back to asking – if these people aren’t homophobic, why can’t they identify with people who are homosexual? If, after all, we can identify with people who are balding, a bit tubby around the middle and Speak!…Like!…This! then surely we can identify with someone who has sex with men?

Assuming for the sake of argument that the slash-phobe really isn't a homophobe, perhaps s/he is making the wrong argument with respect to characterization.

Where many slashphobes say "it's bad characterization of Kirk!" is it possible they really mean "it's bad characterization of Trek!" ?

Star Trek is, after all, science fiction with an occasional, semi-racy aside in which the captain gets some with a hot alien chick. The Real Plot [tm] has to do with (fill in sci fi Trek-specific techno-babble here.) If there's a semi-racy sub-plot wherein Kirk gets the hot babe, it isn't the central point of the story, it's a prop to his characterization as a studmuffin through all but meaningless sex.

I don't read Kirk/Spock, but I do read a rather wide variety of slash, and almost all of it takes the creation and cementing of a romantic, homosexual relationship between two (or more!) canon characters as the central plot point. It's moseying over to the romance genre, where the sci-fi, Trek-specific techno-babble becomes the barely relevant aside.

Did the slashphobe click on the link to read a romance, no matter how hot or erotic it might be? The creation of a Serious Relationship between a man known for an endless string of casual conquests and another canon character? Probably not. There's not necessarily a need to delve into whether there's homophobia going on, though it strikes me as rather strange that the most bilious condemnations of poor characterization seem to coincide with characterizations that are...gay.

Re: It's the sex

[green-amber.livejournal.com]

I don't really give a damn about Kirk/Spock slash. I never had terribly much emotional investment in these characters to start with. And yes they are poor caricatures at best (all American womaniser hero vs cold logical machine) so making them gay or not can hardly be said to be destroying existing characterisation.

But when we get to Buffy which has truely excellent characterisation and , to add to that, a complex web of slowly elaborated relationships between those characters, I DO care. Spike, eg, simply does not work to me as gay. It is as much a part of Spike's character to be straight, to be in love with Buffy and Dru and NOT (say) Giles or Xander, with all implications for the romance and frustration and goals that carries with it, as it is my own.

I would object to a film made about my life in which I was portrayed as gay not because I am a homophobe but because it would be a mis representation of my life. It might be artistically interesting, it might highlight certain aspects of my life or my friendships, but, well, it wouldn't be accurate.

Although (as Andy points out) fictional characters are of course rather more up for grabs, I feel much the same about slash pairings in the Buffyverse.

(This I should say is quite outwith the aspect of "good" or "bad" writing - I have read some very good Buffy slash, mostly by rozk - but it still does on the whole not ring emotionally true for me.)

Finally , as is commented at various places above, slash does at root seem to be all about sex. And though much of fiction is about sex, by no means all of it is. In Buffy (to take an eg I know again) we can see themes such as redemption, friendship, family and betrayal. Slash tends to be about - well - can we get these two characters to have sex. It's a rather reductionist genre. I tend to find what I have read after a while (not much admittedly) rather a dull blur of lubricants and rock hard penises. But then I am not much for textual porn in general. (Perhaps I 'm not a girl at all..)

There is after all more to life and to fiction than sex. Even gay sex :-)

New Places, New Friends

[velyrhorde.livejournal.com]

Hey -- those of you who haven't found it should stop by men_who_slash for some additional great discussions on slash and fanfic!

Also - I'd appreciate replies and comments in my own journal poll on EXACTLY this topic! Seems that great minds really do think alike!

[kortirion.livejournal.com]

Perhps there might be a continuing confusion between homoerotic and homosexual fictions. The later is a life-style, the former is a depiction of desire between men, usually expressed by women. While slash writing dates from the 70's one of the concepts behind it, the femininization of the media hero, goes back a lot further. Jane Austen's Mr Darcy for a start and continuing from there through the Mills & Boone/'bodice-ripper' novels[all of which are written by women], because one aspect of slash one might be overlooking is that it's more about romantic and homosocial behaviour than homosexual. [ok, you get non-con sex, BDSM etc, but even there there's a lot of hurt/comfort]
Homoerotic = teh hot guys: a very high proportion of women writers: they explicitly describe the sensibilities and sensations a woman would like to feel if they were a man, but because writing het sex would remove the woman writer from the equation, they write their two favorite men. There is a distinct difference in tone between gay porn written by a man and slash ficion written by a woman that goes beyond individual style. I can't be universal but usually there's a great deal more emphasis on the nurturing/caring/emotionally driven sex. Women write slash characters as idealised men, nurturing/ emotionally sensitive etc - they want to see a masculine man in touch with his feminine side when it comes to intimate relationships. Something that their actual relationships may lack. I bet you'd find that a significant number of slash writers are either teens before they have a relationship, or 35-45+ women who, if they have a relationship, lack romance. And the 'romance' bit is crucial; the subjects of slash are by and large handsome actors who lend their looks to the character rather than their RL persona. Personally, I'm quite happy reading character slash, but RPS squicks me out because I think it's disrespectful to the actor.
On Shakespeare's stage the pretty boy actors were popular with the women theatre goers [who went in considerable numbers]and it was they who didn't want women on stage because it would mean losing 'the boyes in petticoats'. It's not the man pretending to be a woman that was erotic, but the man able to project qualities associated with the feminine, and therefore able to offer an idealization of romantic love. Attributes of chivalric love from the C14 read much like it and had little to do with the realities of being a knight.
By putting a non-homosexual character in a relationship with another 'straight' man, the writer doesn't classify them as gay; she leaves room for romantic aspirations that wouldn't exist by writing the character into a canon/het relationship by which she excludes herself. Of course some characterizations are wifully, often badly subverted, or even turned into Marty-Stu affairs - which are really unfortunate!

Sorry to jump in and lecture, origins/history of slash is one of my pet interests

[deirdre-riordan.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm going to respond from the bottom of your post up, because it seems easier. And I'm here through d_s in case you wondered.

why are so many of the slash writers women?
I didn't get through all the other comments, so excuse me if I'm repeating what's already been said.
I think a lot of it is because many, many heterosexual men are quite uncomfortable with homosexuality. Especially male homosexuality. They see it as some sort of a threat-- on a psychological level, a threat to their very maleness (with some insecurity about their own sexuality thrown in), and on a Darwinian level, a threat to the advancement of the species. And good lord, it's social conditioning, particularly in America. "Gay" was an insult at my elementary school. And I don't think all men have quite left that kind of thinking behind, no matter how "okay" they feel they are with homosexuality in real life.
But there's got to be something more to it, because most femslashers are female as well. For that matter, most fanfic writers are female. On that level, I think it's a matter of women being more comfortable with indulging their fantasies. It's not "socially acceptable" for men to read Harlequin romances, and I think romantic/erotic fanfiction kind of comes in on the same level for a lot of men. And I guess that kind of answers the homophobia questions too.

On emotional betrayal/violation:
I know that in canon, Professor Snape would never boink Harry in the Potions classroom, and that Kirk and Spock would never have blindingly passionate mind-meld sex, because none of these characters are gay in canon. And yet I write it, and I read it.
The funny thing is, I know it's completely canonically *possible* that Ron and Hermione might get it on in the Astronomy Tower, or that Uhura and Sulu did some roleplaying after the credits rolled on "The Naked Time." But I don't want to read about it in most cases, and I would never write it. Graphic het squicks me half to death, despite the fact that I am a (mostly) heterosexual woman.
So while fidelity to canon is very likely a big issue for many people, I don't think "this character would never do that" is the whole story. I think there's also an issue with sexual comfort levels, and what someone finds it exciting to read about-- their personal squicks and kinks and whatnot. And I guess that answers the "eww, gross" portion as well.

And well, that's really all I have to say. I hope this is at all useful.

[laeb.livejournal.com]

here via the daily_snitch :)

I'm a 21 yo female slash writer. Been wandering around three fandoms (LOTR RPS, LOTR FPS and HP) since I discovered ff and slash (just about the same time) over two years ago. All slash, all the time.

I think that female slashers, above a lot of things, consider that man-on-man sex is hot, smut-speaking. I used to read het - novels and short stories, not fanfic - but I barely do so anymore. There are numerous reasons I didn't give into het ff, however, the most significant ones would be that Mary-Sues and OFCs invaded all the fandoms and I don't particularly enjoy reading about these super-women (or hot, young girls who have all the powers, attract all the hot blokes, etc. etc.). With this comes the fact that many of the het writers are 14 yo girls who write poorly. Yes, it has to begin somewhere, I do not deny this fact, and with a bit of help they'll improve, but bad fics scare me to death. And then I have come to realise that most women slash writers are 'older' women. Some are straights, some are queers, some are a lil' bit of both but the fact is the have more experience and they know how ot write.

Oh, I was forgetting. Two guys together are turn me on. I don't mind my (male) partner to watch porn - hey I'll enven join him - or to 'read' *coughs* Playboy or Hustler if it turns him on. I'll read some hot smut featuring two males I love to imagine together (even though it couldn't be any firther fromm reality) and it'll turn me on. And then wE'll be able to play together.

[puppy-tenchan.livejournal.com]

Here via Daily Snitch.

The question remains – why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

Apart from the "Two guys are hot" answer, I can add my own, as I'm a woman, I slash, and I know I'm not the only one who has the following motives:

I write (and draw, and watch and read) slash, because I cannot have it in reality. I can go out and have sex with a man, and I can go out and have sex with a woman, but I can not become a man and have sex with another man. It's an experience that is unattainable, and like so often with us humans, the unattainable things are terribly attractive. So I at least identify with a male character and 'have the experience' through that character.

...and two guys getting it on is hot ;)

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

'Fiction written by fans of a work in which characters who are not canonically gay are written with the assumption that they are'

I would also say it applies to canonically gay characters as well.

Sexuality seems to be something you are, not something you do, and thus when made into an overt part of a character is too prominent to simply glide past.

Ahhh, so true. At least in the majority of cultures around the world. There are some where gender and identity aren't defined by your sex, and who you shag. Unfortunately, they are definitely the minority. :( In the West, identity and gender are created to be tied to this closer, and so when heteronormative (exactly what it sounds like) boundaries are crossed, people tend to chuck a spack.

From my experience, most of the anti-slash sentiment I have seen has been homophobic. This citing canon-reasons, or purity of characters, are definitely in the minority in this regard.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Ahh, woops, missed the last part.

why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

Ahh, so many reasons. Let's cover the major ones.

1) It's a matter of textual production. 99% of the media produced in our society is made predominantly by men. They write most of it, film most of it, draw most of it, star in most of it, etc etc. We are starting to change this, which is nice. Unfortunately, not fast enough. So women seek out alternative methods of turning the texts that they enjoy or are okay about into texts that they love and can identify with on a deeper level. They do this through many areas of fandom. That's why so much of fandom is female gendered.

2) Following on from that, fandom offers a safe area in a sort of virtual underground where women can therefore act out ideas and fantasies (both general and sexual) away from the judgements of society and the black pens of censorship. In the real world, "slash" is rarely published unless part of a larger book focused on something else, so it ends up as a gay love side-story (ala, Anne Rice books). I weep when I see the erotica shelves of Borders, full of boring schoolgirl-tales and crappy black corsets. The mainstream media has once again taken those things which were secret for a while, and fun, and actual turn-ons, and "normalised" them so they end up safe for wider consumption, and not a threat to husbands or boyfriends. They are a far cry from what actually is a turn-on in a lot of cases because of this.

3) So, again, following on from this, the One Great Taboo of male homosexuality becomes a turn-on for women because a) we're told we're not meant to be turned on by it (forbidden fruit and all that), b) two guys is just plain sexy, cos it is, and c) it's subversive because of attitudes and taboos in society, which make the forbidden-fruit thing even better, as well as the fact it's subverting a piece of the male-produced-media into the form we want it to be. If men, and even gay men, had the gender issues women have dealt with for the last, oh, I dunno, 10-7 thousand years, I'm sure there would be more straight guys who would write slash. But they haven't had those issues, so they don't.

4) On a more complex note on the gender issue, many researchers (such has Henry Jenkins and others) have theorised that the creation of the male gender in society as "Normal" or "Default" and everything else (including females) as "Other" leads to a desire to use this normalising technique, and turn it on its head. No matter what kind of heterosexual romance you're writing, there's always some expectation placed upon the gender roles of male/female in it. Many people find said gender roles restrictive and a plain old turn-off emotionally and physically. So if we want to write a love story, or a sex story, without those gender issues, we go to a pairing that we believe lacks it entirely- a pairing that has two "Default" creatures in it, without the "Otherness". This is why there's always an air of androgynisation in slash, even femmeslash. The roles of the characters become mutable and its easier for someone to move through the different roles, rather than in just a straight fantasy, for example, to be confined to female/male because of the gender roles used. Like I said, if men were the 'Other' and females were the 'Default', we'd probably see a reversal of this somehow in society, but they're not, so instead we have chicks writing slash.

So um, they're the main reasons I've found in both experience and readings on the subject. Hope this helps a little bit.

[the-dark-twin.livejournal.com]

Hi Andrew,

I'm here via the Daily Snitch.

You have some great thoughts here, and expressed them so well – thanks for sharing them! I find it particularly interesting to read a man’s POV on this, because as you said, 95 % or more of the slash genre is made up of female readers and writers. And that, in itself, is part of its appeal to women, I think – it’s a big sisterhood that can agree on a certain set of ground rules simply because we all are women. We’ve made ourselves a comfort zone there.

While I don’t really have anything to add to your thoughts on why people who don’t like slash tend to react so strongly, you also asked

why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

I was asking myself the same question and I came up with some answers on my own LJ, here. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/the_dark_twin/2361.html#cutid1) I somehow wasn’t happy with the “usual” answers, so I worked through all those trying to find out whether they really applied to me, and why (or why not), and whether there wasn’t more behind it than simply finding two men together hot. I’m linking you to it because it’s way too long to post in here. Maybe you find one or the other aspect of it interesting. The examples are mostly taken from the Harry Potter fandom, but the underlying principles probably apply to slash in all fandoms. There are also a few links at the end for "further reading", if you're interested. :)

[kleio-the-muse.livejournal.com]

Also here via daily_snitch

I'm quite certain somebody has already stated this as the bleeding obvious, but to me as a woman, the reason for writing/reading slash is simply that I indentify with one the book/film/show's characters, who happens to be male, and since I'm het myself, I could never write a sex scene between this person I identify with and another woman. So, as far as I can see, slash is actually just love stories written from the perspective of a het woman and featuring a man as the leading character.

Why I indentify with a male character and don't just go and find a woman to attach myself to, is also quite obvious. In the fandoms that I've been in, there just isn't such a woman that might appeal to me, whereas there is at least one man (or usually two men) whom I immediately fancy and to whom I can relate. Further, I'm not much of a girly girl, so the shift to the male POV is rather an easy one.

So far this could all stay below the G rate, for the mere indentification doesn't necessarily call for sex between the characters, and that is where it gets tricky. I still don't understand why it's sexy for a man to watch two women together, and the reasons are pretty much the same for women who enjoy reading/writing about two men, so that's an equal mystery to me. The only difference is, I think, that women prefer to be in charge of their characters, and while watching gay porn really does nothing for me, men do seem to enjoy their regular dosage of the 'lesbian spank inferno' and such. To most women it seems to be more about the characters, those very specific men and not just any two blokes.

The being-in-charge thing is quite interesting. I've actually been thinking about how I would react if I was to see, for instance, Jack/Will get it on in the next Pirates of the Caribbean film, and quite frankly, I'd be shocked. As much as I love reading about them, I really wouldn't want to see them in a relationship. That would be absurd and against canon and, for fuck's sake, against common sense! I can see the attraction between them and enjoy the slashers' takes on them, but all the time I'm full aware that what I read/write is fiction, fictive, even in the context of what were to begin with fictional characters - fanfiction is really twice as fictional as the original fiction, isn't it? To make a slash relationship canon would be almost a disappointment, as if the characters had been taken away from me and the wonderful world of makebelieve destroyed. Fanfiction is all about possibilities, not realities, even though there should be at least some logic behind the pairings made.

Anyway, that's a bit beside the point, sorry. And I really don't have much to say about why some people find slash so objectionable (the reasons you pondered were quite accurate, I'd say), again, sorry. Perhaps what you need is a male slasher's perspective on things, for we women do tend to repeat the same cliches over and over again:)

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

So, as far as I can see, slash is actually just love stories written from the perspective of a het woman and featuring a man as the leading character.

FWIW, back when I first discovered slash (this was 1983) that reason was the reason that everybody gave - just routinely: it was the given.

It didn't make sense to me (being neither a het woman nor in love with any of the guys I was writing about) and I think it didn't make sense to a lot of other slash fans, lesbian, bi, or het: but it must have had a fairly wide following at the time, and is - obviously - a real reason for writing/reading slash. It's just never been the only reason.

[kiyuchan.livejournal.com]

I've wondered about this subject for a while, but from a slash fan's perspective. I have a friend who is completely not homophobic, but HATES slash. She is a fan of fanfiction, and is in fact a writer. The thing that puzzles me is that her explanation of her dislike is how un-canonical it is, and yet she writes AU for her fandoms, and in the Harry Potter fandom, only writes/reads Harry/Hermione stuff, which is to me, no more canonical than Harry/Draco. It is just NOT gonna happen. So I'm not sure if I trust her evaluation of her reasons.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

I see where you're coming from on some of it. I can't tell you the number of FF.N reviews I've gotten that say "yeah, sure, we can see Luke as Gay, but Han is too much of a MAN!"

I have a tendency to assume "Everyone is bi until proven otherwise." Unless they explicitly state a preference AND gross out at the thought of someone outside it, I assume they are open to experimentation.

And when male characters in canon are exchanging more intense eye-contact than either ever makes with the woman they're both in love with? What am I to do?

For me, slash is about exploring the subtext. What really happened when MU!Spock forced a mindmeld on McCoy (and you can't tell me that wasn't rape of a sort)? What was Luke going to say before he stopped himself on Hoth? Is the going brideprice for a farmboy the deed to the farm? Why, if there are three people in the room does Ilya only pour TWO glasses of champagne? Pointedly only two.

My husband sees the subtext and encourages me. Or as he puts it "I just pull the pin and roll the grenade under the tent."

My children see the subtext. My youngest daughter watches Smallville with me. She was watching an ep at age three and said "Clark love him Mommy." I agreed that Clark did love his Mommy. A bit later she added "Clark love him Daddy." I once more agreed that Clark did indeed love his daddy too. She watched a while longer and added "Clark love him!" and pointed at Lex. I said "that's Lex." "Clark love him Lex."

And she settled back down on my tummy (her favorite TV watching spot) quite content and watched the rest of the ep without commentary.

When it's that obvious, why not write it?

[andrewducker]

So you're saying that Clark wants to have sex with his parents?

Because that seems to be what you're implying there...

I am being obtuse, but you seem to be leaning towards a fairly simplistic "If there's a strong emotional bond, they want to have sex." viewpoint.

Which, y'know, is fine for fantasising with (and that's what slash seems to largely be about).

[anais-rhys.livejournal.com]

After all, I have had no problem with homosexual characters and situations in other works of fiction where they were intrinsic parts...but I have still had a negative reaction to slash.

This to me is the the main problem; in the fandoms we pursue, because of cultural mores there just isn't enough "intrinsic" inclusion of homosexuality for gay people to identify with. I participate in slash because it's a way of identifying with my favorite characters in a more personal way. To me it is a personal violation when an intimate, loving, same sex relationship in a movie or series is shuffled off as platonic and a completely unconvincing het love interest is thrown in because that's what's expected. The sex does turn me on, but mostly for me it's about exploring what could be if the characters were allowed to pursue same sex relationships.

I think unfortunately that it is easy to be turned off from or offended by slash because of the enormity of badfic out there, but I think that is true of any fandom or genre therein. The stories I enjoy most are in character and realistic explorations of sexuality.

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

Commenting late, because executrix reminded me that I hadn't done so sooner.

Why I like the idea of slash: there aren't enough gay/bi/trans/whatever characters in the media that I enjoy. And practically none in leading roles. So fanfic rectifying that discrepancy should be a good thing, at least until the media producers finally catch up.

Why I get annoyed with most slash that's out there: not enough of it reads like an episode, with the character(s)'s sexuality as a side issue. While second string gay characters in the media tend to be ignored in terms of gaining (and possibly losing) significant others, in slash far too much of the focus is on getting characters together. And on how different it is to what they've done before.

There are notable exceptions: ie what I read more than other stuff. Buffyverse slash (and some het) involving Giles tends to at least acknowledge that there was something going on between him and Ethan, and if Oz is involved there's usually mention of him'n'Devon at the very least. And much 'Once Upon a Time in Mexico' slash works out from the premise that Sands comes across as very, very gay (his canonical gf is also way butcher than almost every other character).

But at the end of the day: I've gone back to writing original fiction, where my hero and various of his hangers-on can be as bi (or gay) as they damn well like.

I have an uneasy relationship with slash. Every time I get really pissed off and vow to stop reading all but a very few authors I trip over something new that really strikes a chord with me.

Gina

[bronze-eagle.livejournal.com]

Why I get annoyed with most slash that's out there: not enough of it reads like an episode, with the character(s)'s sexuality as a side issue.

*hugs* This is exactly how I feel about much of the slash I read, as well as a lot of the original fiction novels that feature gay or bi characters (sadly, I've seen almost no fiction that has trans characters as anything except comic relief). If I ever am able to publish original fiction, I want to write novels that feature characters going on adventures, having fun, getting into trouble, getting out of trouble, and generally living, who also happen to be gay/bi/trans/intersexed/whatever. That's why I love Francesca Lia Block, Lynn Flewelling, Neil Gaiman, and other such folk. ^^ People may have to deal with special issues when they're gay/bi/trans, but they also have to deal with everyday life.

[bronze-eagle.livejournal.com]

I'll be taking my definition of slash as 'Fiction written by fans of a work in which characters who are not canonically gay are written with the assumption that they are'.

Um, commenting as I go, here, but I just wanted to say there may be a flaw in your starting definition. I would also consider a work of fanfiction "slash" if it involved a relationship between two canonically gay characters, such as Alec and Seregil in Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series. These two are in a canonical sexual relationship, but I would not consider a fanfiction portraying that relationship any less a "slash" fanfic than a Harry Potter/Draco Malfoy fanfic (two male characters who are not canonically gay).

--

Okay, I finished it. You brought up some interesting points. As a slash reader, I don't really feel that slash fanfiction challenges my interpretation of characters (though obviously I am biased :P).

Some slash fanfic has the characters more in character than other slash fanfic. I think that's true of all fanfiction, though. The content doesn't really matter so much as the author's skill. If an author could write Harry/Snape (most emphatically NOT cannon, nor do I believe it will ever be cannon) and get me to believe it is in character, then that fic has good characterization, and I would consider that a good author. Another author could write Ron/Hermione or Remus/Sirius, two pairings that I think are practically canon already, and still have the characters feel wrong or out of character.

In other words, pairing isn't what matters. What it really comes down to is the author's skill as a writer.

The question remains – why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

This one is pretty easy if you think about it, IMHO. Why are there so many guys who like to watch lesbians having sex? I'm sure there are gay men who write slash, just like there are lesbians who watch lesbian porn. There are just fewer gays and lesbians out there, so there are naturally fewer gays and lesbians watching porn and writing slash. (BTW - I know of a few heterosexual men who write slash, and fairly explicit slash at that. Some people just like certain pairings, regardless of whether they're slash or het.)

Interestingly enough, Japan has a huge number of comic series - manga graphic novels - that feature "boy's love" or "yaoi," with men or boys in sexual relationships. These are almost exclusively aimed at women, not gay men.

Hm. Well, I hope that helped. Did I make sense? I tried to. ^^;; Interesting discussion, though. Thanks for bringing it up!