Relationships
Oct. 21st, 2003 08:22 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
andrewduckerThis theory is not true.
Well, mostly not true.
Well, partly not true.
Actually, it seems to be true an awful lot of the time.
Well, mostly not true.
Well, partly not true.
Actually, it seems to be true an awful lot of the time.
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Date: 2003-10-21 01:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-21 11:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-21 12:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-22 12:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-21 01:37 am (UTC)Fortunately, I don't need a rich man and I already have an attractive one :-)
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Date: 2003-10-21 02:05 am (UTC)I bet the man who wrote that theory is one of those homophobes who is terrified at the mere idea of walking into gay space...
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Date: 2003-10-21 02:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-21 05:06 am (UTC)Just because he's writing down stuff that is about het M to F and vice versa attraction, and not talking about gay attraction as well?
How do you know he hasn't got an entirely diffferent set of theories about gay people?
What does he say in there that implies any degree of homophobia? Simply the fact that's he's more interested in his own brand of sexuality than someone else's?
I just scanned it pretty quickly but it seemed to me plain at all times that he was not generalising to anything but boys-who-like-girls-and-girls-who-like-boys. I can't see what 's homophobic about that. Speaking as a het female, most of it seemed pretty accurate (if a mite obvious).
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Date: 2003-10-21 05:18 am (UTC)Because the mindset he describes (if accurate, makes me grateful to be a lesbian and therefore out of it!) is the mindset of every straight man who appears to genuinely fear that every gay man he meets will want to have sex with him, and who therefore keeps all self-identified gay men as far away from him as possible. The presumption behind it is that gay men treat all men like straight men treat women, and that this is how all straight men treat women.
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Date: 2003-10-21 05:34 am (UTC)But.. but.. he doesn't assume that at all. You have *no* evidence for that from what's written down. It's YOU who assume he will treat gay men as if they were straight men ie wanting to have sex with him all the time. (And that doesn't make sense anyway. Straight men don't want to have sex with gay men. Even if you assume he's incapable of understanding any mentality except that of a straight man, it doesn't make sense.)
If I was to call that anything I'm afarid it would be hetero-phobic. You're making assumptions about him simply because of his sexuality. Isn't that the kind of discrimination you're opposed to?
Just try thinking about that for a minute.
How would you feel if I wrote
"Yonmei writes like every gay woman I've ever known who only wants to have sex with other gay women and therefore has no interest in being friends with straight women or men. I bet she's the kind of gay woman who assumes when she goes to a mixed-sex party that every straight man there will try to fuck her."
Wouldn't you feel I was being prejudiced and making unreasonable & discriminatory assumptions?
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Date: 2003-10-21 05:46 am (UTC)The last thing I want to do is to discuss gay politics in any shape, manner, or form, with you. Experience has shown that this is not a good topic for us two to talk about.
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Date: 2003-10-21 05:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-21 06:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-21 06:38 am (UTC)Half the arguments I've seen against gays in the military have been solidly based on this assumption, though - and I've certainly encountered several straight men whose reaction to gay men was the presumption that gay men must want to have sex with them...
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Date: 2003-10-21 11:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-22 12:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-22 12:42 am (UTC)cite please!
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Date: 2003-10-22 11:27 am (UTC)One weird aspect of straight men is the number of them who vocally assume (and act on the assumption) that all gay men fancy all men and will try to have sex with them. This is sometimes specific, as in "I can't go in a gay bar because I don't want a man to make a pass at me" and sometimes general "Gays in the army are bad because it would mean gay men showering/sharing barracks with [real] men". The underlying assumption behind this is that laid out in the article you linked to: all straight men, that writer assumes, want to have sex with all the women they know, and will if the opportunity occurs. This is not a new idea to me - I've run into it several times before. Hence the shorthand.
A better way of putting it would be: If this writer means what he says (like others, I think he's just being a sour old cynicky-boots), I'm willing to lay money that he would be the kind of straight guy who holds as a core belief that all gay/bi men want to have sex with him. And if he is homophobic - and frankly, the kind of misogyny he displays in his writing is a kind that I frequently see associated with homophobia - then he would be the kind of homophobic straight guy who sees all gay/bi men as a threat because of his core belief that they all want to have sex with him.
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Date: 2003-10-22 12:54 pm (UTC)I still think it's a leap, but I can see your chain of logic.
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Date: 2003-10-21 02:41 am (UTC)of course i'd sleep with my friends. they wouldn't be my friends if they didn't rock, and if they rock, i'll be attracted to them.
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Date: 2003-10-22 12:43 am (UTC)In my experience the phrase "I like you, but not in that way." is extremely common.
Ick
Date: 2003-10-21 03:26 am (UTC)[1]Which isn't actually true. But 'chicks' don't dig whingers with a sense of entitlement.
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Date: 2003-10-21 06:09 am (UTC)Basically, nice guys take a long time to get around to asking women out because they think seriously about whether a relationship would be a good thing, whether it's worth risking the friendship for, etc, etc, so it's something they do only rarely.
Whereas jerks, because they don't really care, ask women out quite often.
Therefore, most of the time the offers women get are from jerks not from nice guys, so, statistically, women are much more likely to be asked out by jerks than by nice guys, and therefore much more likely to end up dating them.
Of course, if there was a more equal power dynamic for women asking men out themselves, rather than waiting to be asked, then the whole situation might be very different.
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Date: 2003-10-21 07:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-21 07:22 am (UTC)I'd be interested to hear about any recent experiences people have of this situation.
The last time I was dating was the early 1990s, and, I did occasionally ask guys out, but I got some weird reactions from them, even when they did actually want to go out with me.
Maybe it was the sheer surprise, because not many women did ask guys out back then, but I wonder if there's an element of the old classic "what kind of girl are you?" routine, where women who admit they actually want things like sex are rated lower on the scale of desirability than women who have to be persuaded.
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Date: 2003-10-21 05:02 am (UTC)Actually there's an awful lot of sense in there. there were xeveral points where I actually went , "ow""
Viz
Scenario 1: Tom meets Jane. She's pretty and seems interesting to talk to. Tom and Jane start haging out and talking more and more. Tom develops an attraction to Jane, and one day tries to kiss her. Jane tell Tom she doesn't think of him that way and she wants to remain friends. The next few weeks contact between the two falls off. Jane starts fucking an outlaw biker.
*Choke*
Howver I think I can honestly say that I am NOT attracted to 50% money and power. considering i sopend my days surrounded by alwyers and middle class professionals and consistently go out with pennlies wastrels I am definitely more 50% attracted to the Outlaw Biker I think..
Whether this is ideal for me is Another Matter Entirely.
The ladders and how you always want to move up them things, is very very, scarily accurate I think.. (off to worry)..
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Date: 2003-10-21 05:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-21 06:00 am (UTC)I saw a really good ep of the Ozzy drama Secret Life of Us a while back in which a "mature" woman - late 40s maybe - walked into a dating agency and insisted on being matched with a rich man, so she could reire from work as soon as possible. The staff were, of course, flabbergasted. The point of the ep was to make you think about whether it was intrinsically wrong to select for money as opposed to more traditionally "romantic" virtues, like handsomeness, lust, sense of humour etc. I ended up thinking that as long as the choice was conscious it wasn't morally wrong. But it's not what your gut says, right? ( I stress that as stated above I am hardly the kind of person who goes out with guys cos they're rich :)
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Date: 2003-10-21 06:03 am (UTC)There's a lot of venting in this, with girls taking the flak. It'd be interesting to read the same theory from a bitchy female POV. I'd be amused.
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Date: 2003-10-21 07:12 am (UTC)That guy really hates women, doesn't he?
There are some really obvious contradictions in his theory - he says women rate guys mainly on how much money they have, then later on (in Construction of the Ladder) insists that they find unemployable alcoholics more attractive than regular guys.
And as to : IF A MAN FINDS YOU ATTRACTIVE YOU CANNOT BE FRIENDS
That's just nonsense.
If you're lucky then one or two of your friends will be yours unconditionally 'til death do you part. The rest of your friends come with all sorts of baggage which makes their friendship with you to some extent conditional on external factors. Fancying a friend is just one more type of baggage, but really it's not any more destructive of friendships than any other kind.
Friends who fancy you are just as "real" as 99% of the friends who don't.
Oh and he's using the classic defintion of "bitch" meaning "woman who won't sleep with me" (which he estimates as 99.999% of women) then later says "Not a single woman who wasn't a bitch has ever complained about misogyny at this site."
So that means, by his own estimation 99.999% of women would say he was being misogynist, while a mere 0.001% fail to see through him... :o)
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Date: 2003-10-21 12:49 pm (UTC)