Very cool, if true

Power is a funny thing.

I would be unsurprised to learn that he sincerely believes his own words. I would be equally unsurprised to learn that he knows them to be a tissue of lies.

Any sufficiently advanced level of self-delusion is indistinguishable from bad faith.

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On my cynical days, I think that a sizeable majority of those who seek power are actively doing so in order to be able to bully, pressure, use and abuse. That's largely the point of status for them.

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I’ve never had that thought ever in my life or anything approaching it.

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I'm largely with you. I do think that most politicians are trying to improve things. They just disagree about what an improvement might look like and how to achieve it.

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bens_dad

I think that, at least in some sense, most MPs don't seek power, just a platform to do good works.
Senior politicians might be different, but then I think of the party leaders who get the job almost by accident.

(I suspect that Boris wanted the job to put on his CV/tombstone and didn't think about the job itself until he had had it for some time.)

Back to the question at hand, a significant number are there to feather their own nests, but how many *aim* to bully and abuse ?
Gordon Brown was accused of bullying, but I doubt he was doing it deliberately, or was even aware that he was doing it.

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Complicated. Quite important e.g. to understand that Liz Truss precisely fits the definition of “seeking… a platform to do good works”.

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Nor I.

But I highly suspect a significant proportion of people who seek power do.

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Sorry. Not clear.

I have never in my life had the thought that you describe having.

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Ah. Ok.

So you have never thought that maybe some people want power expressly to force others to their will, exploit them etc?

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“Maybe some people” is a bit different from what you said.

I don’t think this number is zero but I think it’s an extremely small proportion of the population.

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As I said, on my cynical days, I think it could be sizable proportion. Across all the kinds of power, across the world.

Well, who at least think that getting what they want, regardless of what others do is one of the perks, even if not the main main reason to be powerful.

Ach, you're probably right, I'm probably overestimating.

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greenwoodside

Would have been more likely to disagree with you during my years spent working in libraries (no one works in libraries for money and fame, including the managers), but a move to another organisation with a lot of selfish/childish boss behaviour has unfortunately moved me closer to your perspective.

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I didn't specify politicians, not sure where that came from. But political power is one kind of power. And the possibility to make others do what YOU want even if they don't want to is a feature of politics the same as any power.

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Having read the parts of the article that concerned scientology, punishments, etc. I would be actively surprised if he wasn't a broken mess of a person, with a ton of self-delusion going on.

He would still, of course, very-much be a danger to others.

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Yes. My two scenarios are ends of a spectrum with many points in between and probably other dimensions that I’m missing.

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Or one who has lifelong been actively using the persuasion training in which he so excelled in order to get his own way. Emotional protestations can be another manipulation method to some manipulative people.

If you've been there, you'll recognise the pattern. But it's not always obvious to those with no personal experience.

I'm very lacking in sympathy for him, I'll admit.

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calimac

No, I don't think he's lying or in conscious bad faith. I think he has a mental construct different from other people. I can easily imagine him thinking that the hot tub incident, for instance, was consensual. Thinking that things like that are consensual are what make a "gentleman predator" (i.e. overtly polite but still a predator). It's a kind of parody of seduction in which he manipulates her into a position where, to borrow a phrase from another form of predatory behavior, he makes her an offer she can't refuse.

Edited Date: 2025-01-15 04:06 pm (UTC)

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There are certainly bits like that. But things like the event here are hard to spin in that way.

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calimac

"or I will die"? That sure sounds exaggerated. Still, what a blatant ignoring of a strong request. I think this one's a case of "thinks with his dick." It wants in there; nothing's going to stop it. Which is of course the dictionary definition of rape.

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She said NO to penetration. That's not a "strong request", that's NO. Ignoring that is rape. As you do rightly point out.

Saying so doesn't need any more dressing up with other phrases that sound uncomfortably close to playing down the severity. Not does it need picking apart her surrounding phrasing (in this case. Things like "unless you wear a condom" would be)

That's what I hate about all this. Getting bogged down when the basics of consent violations are clear.

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calimac

I'm suggesting that playing down the one phrase may have associated itself in his thought with playing down the rest. That's BAD. That's no excuse. But it might explain the warped mind.

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I guess I'm not interested in explaining that mind. Just in stopping it hurting anyone else

Edited Date: 2025-01-15 06:50 pm (UTC)

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calimac

I think that understanding how it works is a good way of stopping others who behave like it. For one thing, it offers a chance of framing a prohibition that they'll understand or listen to. (I find too many proscripts of bad behavior are not connected with the motivations of the behaving.)

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I agree with this comment on lots of levels.

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I think he's a manipulative bastard who clearly wants to get his own way, regardless of what the other party wants or does not want, even when explicitly stated.

I think he'll use any means of "persuasion" including perhaps playing upon genuine incidents in his past for emotional manipulation - but it's all about him, he doesn't give an actual damn about his "prey".

I've seen this with the (ex) husbands of people I know, I've had people try it on me (didn't entirely work because I wasn't insecure, but I could see what strings they were looking to pull). I've read about it from others experience and it's a similar story - including people jumping through hoops to try to avoid just calling a sleazy manipulative bastard (or worse) a sleazy manipulative bastard (or worse). I'm a little weary of it.

I've been the one with all the power advantages too, and have felt the points where I COULD have been the sneaky or pushy bastard to get what I wanted - BUT I DIDN'T DO IT! And that's the behaviour I expect from others. It's what we should all expect.

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calimac

OK, fine, he's a sleazy manipulative bastard, but I'm interested in what makes him that way. I don't think he's twirling his imaginary mustache and chortling about how sleazy he is. If he believes these incidents were consensual, and I don't think he's deliberately telling an untruth, it's his idea of consent that's warped, in the direction of manipulating (there's that word) others into doing what he wants. There was a man like that hanging around my social circles some years ago, who got a bad reputation I heard about from the women in the group (I'm male myself), and that's how he operated.

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jducoeur

Honestly, from everything I've seen, I have a suspicion that he's a very high-functioning sociopath.

I moderated a panel on this topic this past weekend (at a local science fiction convention), and was quite struck by an unrelated story about his early days, when he was at a convention entirely for pros. He came in wearing his usual "mask" of sunglasses and black leather, and was completely confused when the experienced pros told him to fuck off with all that bullshit. He was apparently surprised that everyone doesn't spend all their time masked like that when in public.

Combine that with his weirdly-broken Scientology youth, and it's not hard to see him growing up with an ingrained view that people are there to be manipulated, and that everything is about projecting the correct image to be able to do so effectively. Add in things like the way he has handled this scandal, the level of crap he has shoveled onto Ada Palmer in their divorce, his horrifyingly abusive misunderstandings of BDSM, consent and abuse, and so on, and I'm getting to an uncomfortable view of someone who doesn't really have an intrinsic sense of empathy, but has learned to project empathy when he's in public.

None of which requires sinister mustache-twirling -- I agree that he might well believe that he hasn't done anything wrong. But in a serious sense, that's worse. Someone who intuitively understands and admits their wrongs has at least a chance of learning and growing; someone who doesn't, probably doesn't.

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movingfinger

He seems ready to whip out an NDA at the drop of a hat. Not something you do when the truth is innocuous, obvious, and exonerating.

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calimac

I count two of those in the article, and they were long afterwards, in a context he would not have perceived as friendly (which I put that way to avoid having to specify the original context as friendly). Not helpful for observing his behavior at the time.

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jjhunter

Meanwhile, I am enjoying discovering the works of Tanith Lee. I wish I'd found her work sooner; I very much hold Neil Gaiman to account for that also.

(Ref. Matthew Boroson on just how much of the Sandman series was modeled on Tanith Lee's 'Tales from the Flat Earth' without due credit.)

Edited Date: 2025-01-16 03:13 am (UTC)

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Having spoken to a couple of people who have read both, they felt that the similarities were there only if you stood a long way away and squinted.

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anna_wing

Having also read both, and the article, I can say that it never occurred to me that there was any connection between the two bodies of work at all. In no manner shape or form would Azhrarn the Beautiful, Night's Master, Lord of Wickedness, suggest to me that self-pitying idiot Morpheus.

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Thank you, it's good to know more!

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anef

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?

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