Interesting Links for 11-11-2024

[andrewducker]

1. Some more history of the vile Israeli football fans who started trouble in the Netherlands a few days ago. (Lots of racism and violence)

(tags:history football bigotry racism Israel )

2. What message did Shakespeare have for men and women?

(tags:shakespeare gender history )

3. Fine, Let's Talk About Trans Athletes

(tags:LGBT transgender sports law bigotry )

4. Israel's military has achieved all it can in Gaza war, according to former defense minister (and Netanyahu is the one holding up a deal. For months now)

(tags:Israel Palestine Gaza war )

5. 'It's not close' - Israel committing genocide concludes Wikipedia ending editorial debate

(tags:genocide Israel Wikipedia )

6. Dutch journalist demands apology for misuse of her footage showing Israeli fans attacking Amsterdam locals (including by Sky, BBC, NYTimes)

(tags:Netherlands Israel journalism OhForFucksSake video )

7. Dearborn's Arab Americans feel vindicated by Harris' loss

(tags:USA Palestine politics )

Comments

[bens_dad]

7. Harris loss
Unofficial results show Trump received the most votes in Dearborn, with 42 percent, while Harris earned 36 percent — a 33 percentage point drop from when Biden won Dearborn in 2020. Green party candidate Jill Stein collected 18 percent.

Pity that more didn't rally around Jill Stein then.

[andrewducker]

Or that they didn't have a better voting system.

[sobriquet9]

3) The article states that "if you’re talking about a 6’10” trans woman who went through a regular testosterone-driven puberty and has been on hormones for 6 months, we can probably all agree that this hypothetical person would have what many would consider an unfair advantage in sports like basketball or volleyball", then continues to argue the opposite, because "maybe" there are some other sports where this is not the case.

The fact that there are exceptions is not enough to invalidate the rule.

[andrewducker]

The rule about basketball?

[sobriquet9]

The rule about allowing trans women to compete in women sports in general.

I know one sport (IPSC) where biological women can compete at the same level as biological men. I consider that to be an exception rather than the rule. For vast majority of sports, biological women are at a considerable disadvantage. That's why we have women sports in the first place.

[andrewducker]

I'd like to see proof, on a sport by sport basis please. Taking into account the various issues raised in the article (puberty, hormone changes, etc.)

We could start with the research carried out by the IOC: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lindseyedarvin/2024/04/25/transgender-athletes-could-be-at-a-physical-disadvantage-new-research-shows/?sh=419c92943729

[sobriquet9]

Are you asking me to do it for all sports? For example, let's compare world records for running, swimming, and chess:

5k: 12:35.36 men, 14:00.21 women. 100m freestyle long course: 46.40 men, 51.71 women. FIDE rating: 2831 open, 2633 women.

[andrewducker]

I'm not asking to compare men and women. I'm asking to compare cis women and trans women, in a variety of different conditions.

[sobriquet9]

We are talking about biology. Track times are not affected by how runners self-identify.

[andrewducker]

It is *very* affected by whether they went through a testerone-based puberty, whether they've been suppressing testosterone for years, whether they've been taking estrogen. All of these things have massive effects. On biology.

[sobriquet9]

The fact that there is some variance does not mean that the effect does not exist. When fractions of a second separate champions from losers, even small advantage is important.

[andrewducker]

So prove it. That's the point of the article. At the moment the only research that's been done shows that there isn't an advantage. If you want to exclude people for having an unfair advantage then prove they have one. Otherwise it's not fairness, it's just bigotry.

[sobriquet9]

You said

It is very affected by whether they went through a testerone-based puberty, whether they've been suppressing testosterone for years, whether they've been taking estrogen. All of these things have massive effects

That means some trans women have massive advantage compared to biological women, others less massive.

You don't need to do any research to "prove" that. You already know there is an effect. If you do the research and observed differences are not statistically significant, that just means your sample size was not big enough.

[andrewducker]

I don't know that. You're making assumptions with nothing to back them.

[bens_dad]

I think Sobriquet9 meant biological women are at a disadvantage to biological men.

[andrewducker]

Yes, but nobody is talking about men here. We're talking about comparing cis women and trans women, at various stages of transition.

[bens_dad]

I think that show jumping and related horse-riding events are still mixed.
I wasn't paying attention when olympic sailing events stopped being mixed, so don't know why ...

The article mentions that social factors disadvantage women far more than physical ones; I think that could be on the money.
(Could that also explain why transpeople don't do as well as expected in somw sports ?)

I have read that many sports became segregated because men felt that a few women were likely to beat them. (Possibly the men with voices in the sport felt that a woman might beat them, rather than a woman might beat the best man.)

I have also read something to the effect that elite women perform as well as the men who put in similar amounts of training.
If true that could explain that claim about social factors above.

[sobriquet9]

I have also read something to the effect that elite women perform as well as the men who put in similar amounts of training.

Compare world records. In most sports, the difference is quite large, and I don't think one can argue that athletes that are setting world records do not train enough.

[bens_dad]

World Records are statistical outliers and probably subject to more random noise than other performance figures.
How do numbers of elite athletes compare ? Population size will have a bearing on the number of extreme individuals.

How does a world record setter decide that they are not training enough ?

[sobriquet9]

If you think statistical noise plays a role, look at the world record progression and see how many cases you'll find when women world record was better than contemporary men record.

I don't understand your other arguments. Look at an Olympic opening ceremony, do you see it dominated by men? How can population size play a role when half of the population is women? Are you implying that all women athletes are not training enough, and that's why none of them can beat men?

[nancylebov]

1. Thanks, I think. I now have a soccer team to root against, and this might clear up some things about the Maccabi Tel Aviv's fans bad behavior, though I'd still like to know why they interfered with the minute of silence for Valencia. Compulsive assholism, perhaps.

Still, why is this so much about the horrifying Beitar Jerusalem team?

[andrewducker]

Good question regarding Beitar. Some people are just not very good at staying on-topic.

[nancylebov]

I assume worse than that-- that the writer has an reflexive "reasons to hate Israelis" association system.

[andrewducker]

If he has a "reasons to hate really bigoted Israeli football teams" reflex then I'm probably alright with that.

[gingicat]

The fact that I could only find accurate reporting of the Amsterdam rioting on social media and Al Jazeera makes me so, so angry.