Interesting Links for 18-04-2020

[andrewducker]

#Masks4All: Homemade masks can stop COVID-19 spread and save lives

Anyone disagree with this? Or should I be make myself a mask right now?
(tags:pandemic )

Climate-Driven Megadrought Is Underway in Western U.S.

(tags:globalwarming drought USA Doom )

The Lancet comes out in favour of wearing masks

(tags:pandemic )

Depression: The Olfactory Perspective

(tags:smell depression )

Amount of leadership from the cabinet: zero

(tags:government pandemic OhForFucksSake viaSwampers )

Shambolic Incompetence And Magic Thinking: The inside story of the UK's Ventilator Challenge

(tags:UK medicine incompetence OhForFucksSake )

Do you think humans are capable of thought?

(tags:thinking comic )

I've never watched a White House press briefing, but this is how I imagine Trump's to be

(tags:comic satire pandemic usa politics )

Comments

[cmcmck]

People,including 'experts' seem to be very much in two minds about the usefulness or otherwise of masks.

I can see more of an argument for large cities where distancing can be more difficult.

[alithea]

Yeah. I've got one but am currently only wearing it inside shops, not least because it's a proper fine dust mask and really quite hot and damp to wear for an extended period. But I'm finding social distancing in the streets and park pretty easy where I live so I haven't worried about it too much.

[calimac]

We're wearing masks that B's sister sewed whenever we're out around people, so I guess the answer to your question is yes. Some stores are not letting people in without masks.

[malobukov]

> should I be make myself a mask right now?

Of course. At least two, one in use when another is being disinfected.



Source.

[naath]

Masks> if you do then at least 2, and find, read, and properly internalise the instructions for wearing them. Worn right even a home made mask is some help (mostly to others, from your exhaled germs); worn wrong it is possibly even actively bad, especially because you think you are safer than you are. it is important to keep proper medical PPE where it is most needed; so it's basic cloth mask or nothing for those of us not working in ICU really.

I'm mostly just not going out.

[snippy]

Make masks. Make a mask for each day that you will be going out, between times you can launder and disinfect them. We wear masks every time we leave the apartment, although I'm doing much less of that because other people aren't wearing masks, and refuse to give me the 6 feet of distance that is the minimum recommended for physical distancing.

[anef]

We are wearing masks for shopping, and walking in the park. They are quite hot and your glasses steam up, though I think you can put a wire across the nose part which should help. And yes, wash after each use. If you are disinclined towards sewing lots of people are selling them on Etsy.

[andrewducker]

Thank you for the pointer. Have now bought some on Etsy!

[channelpenguin]

The Lancet article pisses me off. Basically says "there is no evidence that masks help reduce transmission, but it *sounds* like it could work, and makes people *feel* better, so fuck the science, especially as homemade masks are cheap" I would want evidence of effectiveness of a high standard, before putting my name to a recommendation.

People will get overconfident, not wash them, take them off randomly (to talk, smoke,just because)
And way too many will believe the job of a mask is to protect THEM. Already had the couple next to me on my rescue flight home take theirs OFF once they got on the plane then cough and sneeze over their hands and then hold onto every chair back on the way to the loo.... Using immaculate cough and sneeze hygiene, paper hankies and dispose of them properly, washing our hands - all proven to cut transmission to others.

I'm not unbiased. As a biker, I'm intimately familiar with how quickly a bandana or mask gets nasty, hot and wet. The idea that I could be forced to wear cotton masks in 30+ heat this summer on no scientific evidence that they actually help is making me even more grumpy than I usually am. I'm not 100% sure I'm being 100% logical.

[andrewducker]

It's exactly that kind of thing that this piece was aimed at
https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459?ijkey=c3677213eca83ff6599127794fc58c4e0f6de55a&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

[channelpenguin]

I find that unfairly harsh on me. And not directly related. I'm 100% for continued distancing, handwashing etc. Testing and tracing. Things actually proven to actually work.  I'm absolutely not for loosening the restrictions. It's absolutely NOT the case that masks vs corona tramsmission is as self evident as parachutes against gravity. We would not need scientific method if every plausible idea was actually true.

My point is that the Lancet article itself says masks are not proven in any way to actually reduce transmission. "Common sense" and "plausibilty" often do not stand up to the real world.  Even if it is (mostly) harmless makes people feel better and feel less helpless cos they can craft a mask themselves. I'd rather see the chance used to educate people on scientific standards of proof. But the Lancet has cynically come down on the side of a tactic (masks) for psycholgical reasons. It makes people feel better. It makes them feel less helpless. It is cheap. It gives people something to do and keeps them busy, and gives them the illusion of control. 

And the Lancet were just blatant about it too. Though I suppose the odd person might be able to read the article and think they'd concluded that homemade masks in daily life actually provably help. Despite they say the opposite quite clearly. Maybe the same people that happily voted Tory after being blatantly told exactly how they were going to be fucked in the ass. (Again, nobody here, I'd guess).

But. Fuck it. The Lancet (and you) may think that making people feel better is more important than actually provably reducing transmission rates by testing and tracing. But I would rather people were shouting and pressuring the govt to do those things than feeling better about themselves in a home made cotton mask. Discomfort leads to action. 

But as I said.  I'm totally aware that I hate wearing things round my face, restricted breathing and being too hot.  I'm not going to be guaranteedly rational here. I'm going to hate all those who think in oversimple terms and see (say)Taiwan in masks and jump to thinking that's the (only) answer and we can all go straight back to normal life just with masks. (And think that was all we ever needed and "I told you so") Which I'll say clearly is not anyone here I don't think! But can't deny there's many many like that out there...

Nonetheless, still think I have valid points. 

But if I end up having to, here in Germany, I will. Obviously. 

On 19 Apr 2020 13:15, andrewducker - DW Comment <dw_null@dreamwidth.org> wrote:

andrewducker replied to a comment you left in a Dreamwidth entry "Interesting Links for 18-04-2020". The comment they replied to was:

The Lancet article pisses me off. Basically says "there is no evidence that masks help reduce transmission, but it *sounds* like it could work, and makes people *feel* better, so fuck the science, especially as homemade masks are cheap" I would want evidence of effectiveness of a high standard, before putting my name to a recommendation.

People will get overconfident, not wash them, take them off randomly (to talk, smoke,just because)
And way too many will believe the job of a mask is to protect THEM. Already had the couple next to me on my rescue flight home take theirs OFF once they got on the plane then cough and sneeze over their hands and then hold onto every chair back on the way to the loo.... Using immaculate cough and sneeze hygiene, paper hankies and dispose of them properly, washing our hands - all proven to cut transmission to others.

I'm not unbiased. As a biker, I'm intimately familiar with how quickly a bandana or mask gets nasty, hot and wet. The idea that I could be forced to wear cotton masks in 30+ heat this summer on no scientific evidence that they actually help is making me even more grumpy than I usually am. I'm not 100% sure I'm being 100% logical.

The reply was:

It's exactly that kind of thing that this piece was aimed at
https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459?ijkey=c3677213eca83ff6599127794fc58c4e0f6de55a&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

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[andrewducker]

They say that the mechanism is proven - the virus has been proven to spread through droplets, and facemasks have been proven to massively reduce the spread of droplets.

And as there's no double blind method of investigating this across whole populations during a pandemic while also taking into account confounding issues, the balance of evidence is that facemasks would reduce the spread of a virus.

[channelpenguin]

Conceded. Properly fitted masks, regularly changed and properly washed would likely reduce large droplet transmission and though that's not the whole story, it likely helps. We do not know for certain though.  But I guess at least we have Sweden as Europe's control group right now. Maybe in 2 years time we'll have the data. 

But, can we trust people who currently don't even use a hanky (seen far, far far too many) to do masks right, though? Hmmmm. All my other concerns stand, as to complacency about other measures, due to the risk of widespread simplistic thinking that masks are the only necessary solution.

I still see the enthusiasm for masks as useful far more on psychological grounds. I guess I want people to be frightened realists - and so to push for all the more effective measures, not just do the cheap and easy ones and think it's job done. 

On 19 Apr 2020 13:57, andrewducker - DW Comment <dw_null@dreamwidth.org> wrote:

andrewducker replied to a comment you left in a Dreamwidth entry "Interesting Links for 18-04-2020". The comment they replied to was:

I find that unfairly harsh on me. And not directly related. I'm 100% for continued distancing, handwashing etc. Testing and tracing. Things actually proven to actually work.  I'm absolutely not for loosening the restrictions. It's absolutely NOT the case that masks vs corona tramsmission is as self evident as parachutes against gravity. We would not need scientific method if every plausible idea was actually true.

My point is that the Lancet article itself says masks are not proven in any way to actually reduce transmission. "Common sense" and "plausibilty" often do not stand up to the real world.  Even if it is (mostly) harmless makes people feel better and feel less helpless cos they can craft a mask themselves. I'd rather see the chance used to educate people on scientific standards of proof. But the Lancet has cynically come down on the side of a tactic (masks) for psycholgical reasons. It makes people feel better. It makes them feel less helpless. It is cheap. It gives people something to do and keeps them busy, and gives them the illusion of control. 

And the Lancet were just blatant about it too. Though I suppose the odd person might be able to read the article and think they'd concluded that homemade masks in daily life actually provably help. Despite they say the opposite quite clearly. Maybe the same people that happily voted Tory after being blatantly told exactly how they were going to be fucked in the ass. (Again, nobody here, I'd guess).

But. Fuck it. The Lancet (and you) may think that making people feel better is more important than actually provably reducing transmission rates by testing and tracing. But I would rather people were shouting and pressuring the govt to do those things than feeling better about themselves in a home made cotton mask. Discomfort leads to action. 

But as I said.  I'm totally aware that I hate wearing things round my face, restricted breathing and being too hot.  I'm not going to be guaranteedly rational here. I'm going to hate all those who think in oversimple terms and see (say)Taiwan in masks and jump to thinking that's the (only) answer and we can all go straight back to normal life just with masks. (And think that was all we ever needed and "I told you so") Which I'll say clearly is not anyone here I don't think! But can't deny there's many many like that out there...

Nonetheless, still think I have valid points. 

But if I end up having to, here in Germany, I will. Obviously. 

On 19 Apr 2020 13:15, andrewducker - DW Comment <dw_null@dreamwidth.org> wrote:

andrewducker replied to a comment you left in a Dreamwidth entry "Interesting Links for 18-04-2020". The comment they replied to was:

The Lancet article pisses me off. Basically says "there is no evidence that masks help reduce transmission, but it *sounds* like it could work, and makes people *feel* better, so fuck the science, especially as homemade masks are cheap" I would want evidence of effectiveness of a high standard, before putting my name to a recommendation.

People will get overconfident, not wash them, take them off randomly (to talk, smoke,just because)
And way too many will believe the job of a mask is to protect THEM. Already had the couple next to me on my rescue flight home take theirs OFF once they got on the plane then cough and sneeze over their hands and then hold onto every chair back on the way to the loo.... Using immaculate cough and sneeze hygiene, paper hankies and dispose of them properly, washing our hands - all proven to cut transmission to others.

I'm not unbiased. As a biker, I'm intimately familiar with how quickly a bandana or mask gets nasty, hot and wet. The idea that I could be forced to wear cotton masks in 30+ heat this summer on no scientific evidence that they actually help is making me even more grumpy than I usually am. I'm not 100% sure I'm being 100% logical.

The reply was:

It's exactly that kind of thing that this piece was aimed at
https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459?ijkey=c3677213eca83ff6599127794fc58c4e0f6de55a&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

From here you can:

• Reply at the webpage
• View all comments to this entry
• Go to the top of the thread this comment is part of
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Reply to this comment by replying to this email. Replies will be formatted using Markdown syntax. Your comment must appear before all other text at the top of the reply email. Do not change the reply-to address. It uses a secret address to identify you. Reset the secret address if you've accidentally shared it with anyone else.

The reply was:

They say that the mechanism is proven - the virus has been proven to spread through droplets, and facemasks have been proven to massively reduce the spread of droplets.

And as there's no double blind method of investigating this across whole populations during a pandemic while also taking into account confounding issues, the balance of evidence is that facemasks would reduce the spread of a virus.

From here you can:

• Reply at the webpage
• View all comments to this entry
• Go to the top of the thread this comment is part of
• View the thread beginning with this comment

Reply to this comment by replying to this email. Replies will be formatted using Markdown syntax. Your comment must appear before all other text at the top of the reply email. Do not change the reply-to address. It uses a secret address to identify you. Reset the secret address if you've accidentally shared it with anyone else.

[anna_wing]

Asymptomatic carriers exist. So yes, wear a mask, for other people's sake at least. Preferably a washable one with at a non-woven internal layer. Get at least two. Masks are now recognised by most countries as an essential element of social distancing.

A single layer cloth mask comes in the category 'better than nothing', but decent washable ones with good layering should be available quite easily. I'd also recommend consulting the views of the health authorities of say South Korea or Taiwan, since they demonstrably know more about controlling the spread of this virus than Western ones do.

[naath]

they are not afaict currently 'available easily' in the UK

[andrewducker]

I just bought some on Etsy if that helps.

[emperor]

The problem with masks is roughly risk compensation - folk wearing masks are not as much protected/protective as they might think (particularly with a home-made mask), but tend to behave more dangerously - in particular in terms of touching their face more (and being less careful about social distancing).

Pro vs. amateur

[nojay]

If you ever see pictures of medical staff and others suiting up and wearing masks notice how there's always a pair of them, one person assisting the other with their mask, visor, gloves etc. They get training in how to do this, they have supervisors who will check they are wearing their PPE properly.

A lot of non-medical people wearing masks are doing it for the cosplay factor rather than employing a mask as any sort of a barrier to disease organisms such as viruses. There's a picture going around of an American State legislator wearing a commercial mask upside down and that isn't the worst of them either.

Stay at home. Wash your hands.

[ninetydegrees]

Masks: I plan on making some as lockdown continues here. We've been wearing gloves and scarves when we have to go out and know other people will be around, if only to protect others if we're carriers. Unlike all the comments I've read here, people who had gloves and masks or scarves were more careful about respecting distances, changing directions even if it was inconvenient (grocery shopping has become ballet here), getting in and out as fast as possible, not talking or touching things unnecessarily, etc. than people who didn't have any. People who paid the least attention were using their phones...

[darkoshi]

I'm not clear what one is supposed to do if one needs to sneeze or blow one's nose (which is quite common for me, even when I'm not sick) while wearing a mask. Sneeze into one's elbow, with the mask in place? Lift up the mask up in order to blow into a tissue? Normally I would put the used tissue (or a cloth handkerchief) in my pocket (and maybe even reuse it later), but now I guess I'd need to carry around even more tissues in order to have a new one each time, as well as a plastic bag for disposing them in until I get to a trash bin, and sanitizer for cleaning my hands each time.
It seems so daunting, that's another reason I don't want to go anywhere.

[andrewducker]

If you're actively sneezing then you're not supposed to be going out at the moment.

(Occasional sneezes or hayfever aside)

[darkoshi]

Yes, I know. It's the occasional sneezes and such I'm referring to. For me it happens both indoors and out, year round. Sneezes are less common than simply needing to clear my nose. Which is why I never leave the house without tissues and handkerchiefs in my pockets, and why I avoid clothes without pockets.

I've read a lot about how people need to wear and use masks in the right way, but no guidelines on how to handle sneezing or clearing one's nose when wearing a mask.

I presume it is best to keep the mask in place for sudden sneezes and still sneeze into the elbow to reduce droplets getting out through the mask. Use hand sanitizer before moving the mask out of the way, then blow the nose into a clean tissue, and use hand sanitizer again before putting the mask back into place. (Assuming that one has sanitizer and in a portable-sized bottle.)

To avoid that I'd probably sniffle and/or mouth-breathe when possible, trying to delay the whole rigamarole until I had gotten out of the store and back into my car.

I'm overthinking it, of course. Make a list of what items I need, go directly to them in the store with no extra browsing, check out, and hopefully that will be quick enough to avoid any need for nose blowing.

Masks

[anna_wing]

Sneeze or cough into the mask. That's what it's for. Wash it afterwards if you can. Try to sniff instead of blowing your nose.