Ends and Means

[andrewducker]

I occasionally think about deceit and how worthwhile it is. It's one of those things I love in roleplaying games (hence my Scorpion Courtier in Legend of the 5 Rings), but avoid thoroughly in real life.

Experience has taught me that secrets cannot be kept by multiple people, the truth will come out and no matter how good your intentions were in lying to them, no matter how positive the outcome, people will hate you for not telling them the truth.

Can anyone think of situations where lies did, in fact work out for the best in the long run? (excepting things like counter-intelligence against enemy nations).

Comments

[thepaintedone.livejournal.com]

The classic example is the Chancellor when he de-valued the pound. That is, I beleive, one of the only examples of when a politician is allowed to lie to the house of commons, as to tell the truth would damage the economy. He has to hold the line right up until the formal announcement that the de-valuing will take place.

In general I prefer truth and honesty, but there are plenty of examples where telling someone a fib or being economical with the truth, simply keeps them from feel distress to no good effect. If telling someone the truth cannot in any way help them deal with an issue or prevent whatever it is, but will cause them distress, why upset them?

Of course this question is entirely dependant on the nature of the issue and the person. Some people can deal with bad issues, others fall appart. Whats good for one person and situation will be bad for someone else. Having the wisdom to tell the difference is quite a trick though.

[kpollock.livejournal.com]

Not from me, I agree with you (other than replies to things like "do I look fat?" and "will it definitely be finished by Friday?" obviously). But I'm bad at lying. It's also easier to be truthful i.e. not having to remember what you have told to whom.

Some people thrive on intrigue though. In a lot of cases people know anyway

[andrewducker]

There's a nice line in Cosmonaut Keep where a Saurian says that intelligence and honesty are correlated - smart people realise how much energy a lie takes to sustain and so avoid them.

I've always disliked the whole "Do I look fat in this?" thing - Erin actually told me "Just tell me X." How can she take what I say seriously if she knows that I'm always going to give her the same response? It requires an amount of self-deceit that I certainly can't manage.

[neriedes.livejournal.com]

I think white lies can be quite harmful.For example, if someone does look awful in their new dress they spent ages saving up for the kindest thing to do is to tell them so they won't go out looking silly. Even if it feels cruel it's not because otherwise lying to people keeps them in a false sense of reality.

[andrewducker]

I agree. Which is why what Erin wanted grated on me.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Well, how about "do I look fat in this?" when the person is, in fact, fat, and looks fat in everything? In that case, perhaps it's better to answer the question "do I look as thin as I ever do, and actually rather good, in this?".

And, yes, in answer to the original question. When I was accused of stealing at school, I lied about it, and, there being no witnesses, was given the benefit of the doubt. I had, in fact, been stealing. If I'd been found out, I'd've been expelled, which I think would have been bad. The experience didn't encourage me to steal. I'm fairly scrupulously honest, now, in fact. Overall, I have my education, and I'm honest. If I'd told the truth and got expelled, I might now be honest, but I'd be without the same education (expulsion would have meant a switch to a school that couldn't support the number of GCSEs I was studying for). So there.

[neriedes.livejournal.com]

"do I look as thin as I ever do, and actually rather good, in this?". is more of an appropriate question for the person to ask if they seek the truth.

"Did you steal" the answer to that is not a white lie and that's what I'm talking about.

[moniqueleigh]

Most people know if they actually are fat & thus look fat in everything. When they ask "do I look fat in this?" it is usually intended as shorthand for "do I look fatter than I do normally in this?" At least, that's what I mean!

[neriedes.livejournal.com]

when i feel fat and begin to _think_ i am i ask people, " do i look fat in this" privately wanting them to say no for reassurance regardless of the truth.

I think people who are in fact fat know this and really want a confidence boost.

[moniqueleigh]

Yes, but the answer to "Do I look fatter than normal?" can be a confidence boost. Especially if one is simply feeling fat that day, but is a bit more confident most days.

If an outfit makes me larger than I am, I prefer that the hubby (or whomever) tell me the truth so I can avoid the outfit in the future. But, lucky me!, galoot knows how to say, "That outfit isn't the most flattering one you have." (Or something along those lines.)

[moniqueleigh]

I find it best to tactfully point out the bad look without hurting their feelings. It's something along the lines of "Hmmm... Wow! That's a great dress, but I think this other dress would look soooo much better on you. Have you tried this on yet?"

That lets them know that the dress they've picked is not the best-looking thing in the world on them, but doesn't say you think they have lousy taste in clothing (regardless of your actual opinion).

[heron61.livejournal.com]

I only tell significant lies to people I do not respect and only when it is useful to me. In general, this means that I mostly lie to my parents. I don't know how useful they have been (I suspect very) but while I have been caught in a few, I have maintained a rather impressive tapestry of lies over several decades with them.

According to what they believe:

I make significantly more money than I actually do, am not pagan, have never had a handfasting with imester, etc...

As for counter-intelligence, I talked to a friend who recently did a great deal of reading about Cold War spying and he largely came to the conclusion that the net benefit of all of the spying by all sides was nothing. By and large, it seemed that the various secrets that were revealed would have gotten out in a month or two anyway. His claim was that the entire endeavor was nothing more than a game played by people who assumed that it would be useful and who enjoyed doing it. This accords well with your idea that large-scale lying is largely useless.

[andrewducker]

he largely came to the conclusion that the net benefit of all of the spying by all sides was nothing.

There are of course the counter-examples of both the enigma machine giving the locations of the german fleet and the incorrect information leaked as to the allied reinvasion which caused the tank battalions to sit at Calais rather than repelling allied troops.

But I'm sure that largely the counter-intelligence wasn't hugely useful.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

I think that intelligence can be vital during wartime, because timing and exact & immediate knowledge are vital. OTOH, during peacetime, even during the Cold War, nothing was ever lost by having information come out a month later. I could easily see only having intelligence agencies active during and immediately prior to wars.

[andrewducker]

Aah. One of the things that came out after 9/11 was that the incoming Bush regime had shut down their Middle East intelligence networks as being unecessary, as they were slowly pulling out of other country's affairs.

And then found it impossible to just restart them instantly...