The world continues to slowly improve

[andrewducker]

Comments

[heron61.livejournal.com]

4 or 5 years of news stories and TV shows about gay & lesbian soldiers, and the occasional openly gay or lesbian war hero and I'm guessing the homophobia will be headed for the same (horrifyingly large, but still fringe) crackpot dustbin that anti-semitism currently occupies. Then there will be the gay and lesbian soldiers asking why they can't get married and same-sex marriage will come to pretty much every blue state. If Obama stays in office and Kennedy or Scalia retire, we might even get marriage equality via Supreme Court decision (and dear gods would I enjoy hearing the homophobes wail and whine about that one, Orson Scott Card's inevitable crazed rant would be sweet sweet music to my ears).

I loathe the US military as an institution, but the US has enough of a worship of military might that gays and lesbians openly serving in the military is pretty much the last step needed to drive homophobia from the mainstream to the fringe.

[a-pawson.livejournal.com]

Will there actually be anyone who is openly gay in the military though or will it become like professional sports where nobody is ever brave enough to come out? In the UK there are over 4000 professional footballers, yet there is not a single one who admits to being gay. This has gone on for years and there is probably a similar situation across other sports.

[andrewducker]

We do, however, have openly gay people in the UK military, including one who was on the cover of Soldier magazine. And organisations supporting them:
http://www.proud2serve.net/

[holyoutlaw.livejournal.com]

There are plenty of openly gay soldiers, who march in Pride parades, who have been discharged for refusing to accept Don't Ask, Don't Tell. I've even seen reports that they're trying to re-enlist since DADT is being repealed.

(Edited for brainfart.)

[skington.livejournal.com]

Football is still uniformly in the closet, but rugby union has Wales' Gareth Thomas, as of a year or something.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Ending strongly held prejudice takes more than that.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Yes, but while anti-semitism and racism are both alive and well in the US, they are also both socially unacceptable, even in the more conservative parts of the US. In 2006, former Senator George Alan was well ahead in the polls, made one racist comment that was recorded, and he lost, because enough people who had previously supported him were not willing to vote for someone who openly makes racist comments.

What I see is that there will still be homophobes and plenty of the, but given that homophobia is far rarer among young people, and it's clearly not a strong prejudice among many older people, it will become fringe rather than (as it is now) still on the edge of being a mainstream prejudice.

[spacelem.livejournal.com]

I have no problems with gay people in the military, but must we use that awful phrase "get over it"?

The last time someone said it to me, was right after my gran's funeral, which came not long after my dad's funeral. An Irish woman got on the bus, quite drunk, looked around at the other passengers and exclaimed that we were all a miserable bunch. Then she looked directly me and said "you're a miserable one, who died?" to which Jules answered crossly "his father" (okay, technically he died the previous month, and it was my grandmother, but close enough).

The woman then replied "in Ireland, if someone dies, we get over it. Get over it!". We got off at the next stop.

People die, get over it.
Horrible things happen, get over it.
People are gay, get over it.

You can see why I don't like that phrase.

[feorag.livejournal.com]

If we were to reject phrases because we don't like the way one individual uses them, we'd be pretty mute.

[spacelem.livejournal.com]

That incident helped me to see the phrase for what it really is: provocative and entirely unhelpful.

It can be attached to any sentence: "animal cruelty exists, get over it". "there are no unicorns, get over it". There's no reason why anyone should get over it just because they're told to.

There are plenty of people who dislike things, and being told to "get over it" is not going to persuade them. Going to an Orange Lodge member and saying "people are Catholic, get over it" isn't going to make any of them say "ah, you're right, maybe I'll stop being a bigot".

It's a stupid phrase.

[feorag.livejournal.com]

All because of one drunk Irishwoman, to whom the phrase has a different meaning anyway.

Also, the examples you give are not simple facts of nature. People choose to not give a shit about cruelty to animals. They choose their faith, whether it be Roman Catholicism or believing in unicorns (both of which are equally valid beliefs in my mind). They're issues on which they can change their mind, and many people do at various times throughout your life. And like all opinions, they're open to debate and examination and are healthier if they're subjected to that process.

Whereas people just are straight, gay, bi or whatever.

[spacelem.livejournal.com]

Yes, I understand the difference between choice and things you can't change. Often people get them mixed up (e.g. being goth and wearing black is a choice, liking Siouxsie isn't). Whatever, that was just an example.

I don't think you can necessarily choose to not be Catholic though (at least not initially). Jules was spat at because she went to a Catholic school in Edinburgh, by kids from the neighbouring protestant school. Just being the child of someone from a particular religious group is enough for some people.

But saying "people die, get over it" is a perfectly good example. No, why should I?

Many homophobic people don't know (or refuse to accept) that who you are attracted to is not a choice, so it's a campaign that fails to take into account its target audience. How about saying exactly that:

We can't choose who we fall in love with, please accept that.

or

Who I fall in love with doesn't affect you, please just let me be who I am.

Maybe they aren't quite as punchy (I don't pretend to be much of a wordsmith), but they aren't provocative, and they do help to address the problem. I've seen plenty of witty anti-homophobic slogans that are considerably better than the one that seems to be the most prevalent.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

*thinks* Any phrase can be misused. Some phrases are particularly prone to misuse, especially ones that can slot in to belittle any position. Which is "get over it"? My first thought was the same as feorag's. But now I think I was wrong. I certainly wouldn't object to anyone saying "get over it" about something I think is normal and natural and should be accepted. But it may be more useful to say what "get over it" is implying, that this "is normal and natural and should be accepted"instead -- that may make it more clear why people should get over it, and harder to apply to times when you shouldn' blithely accept it.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

I agree, actually. 'Get over it' strikes me as being a bit in the vein of 'Whatever' or 'So's your Ma' - a phrase which get thrown out when intelligent conversation has gone out of the window.

Which partly is why I see the point of it: it's saying 'we could talk about this until we're blue in the face, but that's the way of life, so get over it. Don't waste your energy'. But to me, it's just not really an argument. It's a leaving the room and slamming the door.

Which is occasionally the right thing to do in an argument. So again, I see the point. But it's never sat quite right with me.

('Some people are gay. Nae bother.' ? (or in Australia. No worries. ?) I quite like as it's an implication of 'don't worry, get over it' but in a positive way and implies all getting along and having a lovely time. Any that's a total diversion, I'm just sharing all my thoughts today.)

[andrewducker]

That's the thing - it's supposed to be a shout of defiance:
"We are gay. We are here. You are going to have to get used to this fact."

The shout of people who are fed up with being demonized and hated, and aren't going to take it any more.

It's not really part of rational debate. It's about Pride, which was a reaction to being told to be ashamed.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I suppose: two things.

Pride is great for being proud and all that, but not great (and potentially counter-productive) for actually working towards acceptance in society, whereas I see that slogan as trying to achieve stuff rather than just being a Proud shout-out. Maybe not?

As far as the ashamed thing goes, though, 'get over it' to me conjures the phenomenon of being in an argument and realising you're actually not sure of your ground so running away; in a sense, being ashamed. But then I'm currently involved in an ongoing situation with someone who is doing exactly that (metaphorically leaving the room every time he's called on something he doesn't have a response to) so my view on that bit could be skewed today :).

But, yeah. I don't object to the slogan or anything - my feelings on the matter wouldn't be strong enough to really mention it, I was just agreeing with spacelem's point (it's a phenonenom on the internet that people will more readily argue than say 'hey yeah, I kind of agree' and I am trying to counteract that!). It just never quite fits right, for me, is all.

[andrewducker]

The only context I've ever heard the "Get Over It" slogan in connection to LGBT issues is in the chant "We're Here! We're Queer! Get Over It!"

I assumed the cover line was referencing that.

I'm intrigued by the issue you're having. Sounds hard to deal with. If people refuse to engage then that's very frustrating to manage.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

See my post for more on that. Bleugh.

I think of the 'Some people are gay. Get over it.' posters, tshirts etc. Same evolution though.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Oh and contrarily, I kinda like its use in the context of that headline.

[spacelem.livejournal.com]

I think that "Some people are gay, nae bother" would make a pretty good slogan, at least for people in Scotland. It is much more positive, which I like.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Let's take over the world!

[feorag.livejournal.com]

Interesting to see that Stonewall's slogan has crossed the Atlantic.

[cosmolinguist]

Er... "we're here, we're queer, get over it" goes back to yer actual Stonewall riots, I believe, and was certainly used in the U.S. before I was alive; I'm sure it dates from the 70s at least.

[drjon.livejournal.com]

[anton-p-nym.livejournal.com]

How disappointing; Photobucket has taken the image down citing a Terms of Use violation. One hopes that it's not for the obvious (and obnoxious) reason, and is merely a silly copyright thing...

-- Steve holds with one of the most famous Canadian politicians, that the State has no place in the bedrooms of the nations.

[andrewducker]

I'll replace it with a Dropbox-hosted one when I get home...

[andrewducker]

Fixed!