Tiiiired

[andrewducker]

I slept like shit last night. Lay in bed stressing for an age, and then after I dropped off Julie woke me up again because I was apparently doing an impression of someone gripping a live wire. And then it took me another hour to fall asleep after that.

The reason being that I was volunteering to hand out fliers with the Yes To Fairer Votes local organisation. And I was stressed that my day would involve arguing with people in the street, so I lay in bed, with my subconscious loudly rehearsing the arguments pro and anti, until about 2am.

As it happened, I didn't end up arguing with any pro-FPTP people at all. Only one person came across that way, and they simply exclaimed "It's shite" and stomped off. The only other person I talked to who was anti-AV wanted full PR, and felt that voting for AV would tell politicians that we didn't want proper PR. I tried to explain that voting for FPTP wasn't going to make politicians think that we wanted PR, but they repeated "I don't believe that." three times to different tacks and then headed off too.

As it was most people just took a leaflet and wandered off. A fair number didn't take a leaflet, which was entirely fair enough, but a few people stopped to ask what it was all about and chat for a minute or two. I don't know how many minds we changed - but so long as people came out of it with more of an idea that there was a referendum (which quite a few didn't seem to know about), and some info that they can then go off and read more about, I'm happy.

Home now, and collapsed in tiredness. Julie's been doing PhD stuff while I was out, and has gone for a nap, so I suspect that I'm due some Bayonetta...

Comments

[phillipalden.livejournal.com]

At least you got out there and did something! I've been watching my fellow Americans get kicked in the teeth again and again; and not only do they do nothing; they actually vote for people who will make things worse for them.

Apathy, Ignorance and Bad Decisions - The American Way!

[andrewducker]

I'm strongly of the belief, now, that FPTP is actually a big factor in the problems that the US and UK have. It forces a two-party system, which causes massive polarisation and tribalism. Really not good.

[andrewhickey.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you'll find that very few people will actually argue with you about it in an unpleasant way - I've had one person tear up a leaflet after reading it, and a couple shouting generic abuse about Nick Clegg (which amused the other people at the stall - a Labour member, a member of Socialist Unity, and a Pirate Party member) in the whole time I've been doing AV street stalls (a good six months or so). I've had a few antis, of course, but not many, and most have been polite and discussed it properly.

But I wanted to say thank you for doing it, for putting in the effort despite your worries. I've been doing it because I've done this kind of thing before for No2ID, so I've been very comfortable with it, but if you were that worried and did it anyway, good for you.

[andrewducker]

Thank you!

It's one of those things where I put it off for weeks rather than getting to grips with it, and it took Danny tweeting me to get me off my arse and joining in. Going to do more though, now that I'm through the initial barrier. Also going to do phone bank stuff.

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

Ditto on both paragraphs.

Very much ditto on the second.

[anef.livejournal.com]

Well done!

[andrewducker]

Thank you!

[momentsmusicaux.livejournal.com]

Where were you handing out leaflets?

And if you're going again sometime, will you let me know? If I don't have C I'd like to volunteer -- and even if I do, I could do a bit perhaps.

[andrewducker]

This time was by the kiddie swimming pool in Leith.

Last couple of times were apparently up by Princes Street/St James Centre, the bit where the anti-war protestors are usually to be found.

And I can let you know - or put you on the mailing list. There's usually about two emails a week asking for people for events, it's very low traffic.

[momentsmusicaux.livejournal.com]

Huh! We were there! We must have left the pool around 12ish, but I didn't notice any leafleting going on.

[andrewducker]

I was still there until after 1, so not sure how that happened. We were about 20 feet from the doors out. Bumped into hfnuala and everything.

[momentsmusicaux.livejournal.com]

Didn't see her at the pool either!?!? And I must have walked right past you too! We came out of the main entrance and headed straight to Leith Walk to catch the bus.

[andrewducker]

We were here.

See the fork on the right of Crown Place? We were on the pool side of the wall there. Don't know if that's the same entrance people generally use?

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

If you are interested in helping out, please get in touch with me, either here or through Andrew. I'm one of the local Edinburgh organisers.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

It always boggles me that people in favour of voting reform take a stance of "I want X and if I can't have X fuck you all, there's no point trying to find an equitable compromise, you're with me or against me". It seems... against the spirit of not-FPTP :)

[andrewducker]

It does rather. When you've got a single method for sending a signal: vote X or X+, and you want X++, voting for X seems....unlikely to send the message you want it to.

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

Playing Bayonetta with Julie in the flat is too awkward, eh?

[strawberryfrog.livejournal.com]

I want full PR. Should I vote for AV instead?
Also, the whole "non-monotonicity" thing in AV sounds like a bug not a feature.

[andrewducker]

I want a million pounds, you want PR, Julie would like a pony. Sadly, none of these things have referendums on them.

What we _do_ have, is a choice between AV and FPTP.

Now, AV is pretty rubbish, as compared to either AV or STV, as far as I'm concerned. However, I consider it approximately 5000 times better than FPTP.

If you view FPTP as being better than AV then you should vote for FPTP. If you consider AV as being better than FPTP then you should vote for that. If you consider them as being as equal as makes no difference then abstaining would seem like a reasonable step.

You _might_ consider that AV would get people used to voting using preferences rather than a single vote, and that this might be a stepping stone to PR. You might also consider that a vote for FPTP would kill most-likely kill any referendum on changing the voting system for the next 30 years. Either of these factors might affect your vote.

Or they might not.

It's up to you :->

[strawberryfrog.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'd like the Million pounds and a pony too, those are just out of scope.

I's be interested in why AV is "approximately 5000 times better than FPTP". I was rating at somewhere betweeen 1 and 2, given that you do get extra preferences, but introduce non-monotonicity. Non-monotonicity is claimed to have happened in practice. I got dragged into this debate here.

[andrewducker]

Hmm. Fair enough. So it can happen occasionally. I'll still take AV over FPTP, because FPTP means that (unless you want to vote for one of the two main parties) you have to guess which one is the party you need to vote for. Which means you're basically doing AV in your head, only without the correct information.

It also prevents new, better, parties from forming. If a new Party Of Awesomeness formed in the UK tomorrow, most people who wanted to vote for it wouldn't, because doing so would advantage a party they disliked. They have to stick with one of the big two, because switching to a different one would take votes away from their favourite of the big two.

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo&v=s7tWHJfhiyo&gl=GB for more details.

[strawberryfrog.livejournal.com]

That video is great! and is worth spreading.

[andrewducker]

I'm going to post it - probably tomorrow before I go to work.

Oh - and just to be clear, I agree that nonmonotonicity is a problem. But I think that it will give problematic results less often than FPTP does. And I think that FPTP leads to a very negative climate - where the best thing a party can do to promote itself is say negative things about it's main competitor. If Labour are shouting "YOU MUSTN'T LET THE TORIES GET IN!!!" then it has an implication of "Therefore you must vote for us." (and vice versa). If there are seventeen options then "YOU MUSTN'T LET THE TORIES GET IN!!!" leaves you with sixteen people to vote for - so they need to give you a good reason to vote for _them_.

I'd rather have AMS (as we do up here in Scotland) and I'd take STV over AV. But I'll take almost anything to get rid of the toxic relationship we currently have between parties.

[strawberryfrog.livejournal.com]

BTW, I have made a reddit thread on the AV debate. Some of the links and ideas come from here. Though hardly anyone over there dislikes AV really, so it's a very mild debate.

[andrewducker]

Cheers - I'll keep an eye on it for more interesting responses!

[andrewducker]

Also, apparently in real life situations nonmonotonicity doesn't tend to actually occur.

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

Non-Monotonicity using the Alternative Vote happens much less often than the main bug of FPTP, split votes leading to tactical voting.

[andrewhickey.livejournal.com]

Yes, from my point of view - http://andrewhickey.info/2011/02/10/no2av-myths-busted-1-yes2av/