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Date: 2011-01-15 12:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 01:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 01:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 01:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 02:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 03:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 04:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 02:22 pm (UTC)I don't know if the idea will be practical, but it at least seems mildly helpful and not horribly discriminatory, which puts it miles ahead of lots of pro-health initiatives.
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Date: 2011-01-15 03:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 04:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 03:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 06:15 pm (UTC)The person who is talking about Celtic names (
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Date: 2011-01-15 06:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 06:50 pm (UTC)I'm a bit of a nerd about this, alas: being a Celtic historian, these books get mentioned to me a lot.
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Date: 2011-01-15 07:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 06:48 pm (UTC)On a side note - it seems to me that the rant is not actually about names, but about the basis in which fantasy novels are set. Too many focus on what is basically medieval Britain, with all the whitewashing and Euro-centricism that implies. I've read quite a few good blog posts on the subject from authors of color, and I agree that there does need to be more fantasy that involves characters of color and different backgrounds and inspirations. I just don't particularly find the Celts to be that unused as inspiration nowadays. People like Marion Zimmer Bradley have been tapping that source since the 70s to good effect.
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Date: 2011-01-15 06:59 pm (UTC)The starting point for that rant was a comment that 'bad' fantasy names are polysyllabic and that this latter is unrealistic. I thought about that for a while and came to the conclusion that it's not in fact true -- lots of cultures use polysyllabic names routinely, but the (Americanised) West doesn't do so as much. Hence the rant.
You are absolutely right about the Eurocentricity. I really don't like books which are Europe-with-fantasy-names (Francika, Germanoria, Hispaniana etc etc). It's lazy, and it's a form of cultural imperialism and white-washing.
I didn't say that Celtic names were underused and I don't think Kit did. I just quoted some of the longer (and, to lazy modern eyes less palatable) ones as an example of how polysyllabic names are not in fact odd or uncommon.
(When I was still teaching full-time, I used to dream of a moratorium on Celtic fantasy so that I could get on with my subject -- mediaeval Ireland and Wales -- without having to deal with all the modern myths.)
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Date: 2011-01-15 07:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 04:35 pm (UTC)How do I do that?
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Date: 2011-01-15 05:47 pm (UTC)Which evening (other than Tuesday) is good for you?
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Date: 2011-01-15 11:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 11:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 10:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-20 11:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 04:58 pm (UTC)So, you know. Southern English names. Wow, that's branching... in...
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Date: 2011-01-15 06:12 pm (UTC)A lot of those 'Southern English' names are polysyllable, too (which is what the post was about). They're also not really 'Southern English', but that's another topic.
Do feel free to come and join the discussion on my blog. Everyone's welcome.
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Date: 2011-01-15 06:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 06:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-17 08:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-17 10:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 07:01 pm (UTC)You know, with a Linguistics/English Language background it's not that I don't appreciate where you're coming from - I am aware that people all over the world have polysyllabic names.
It's just that polysyllabic made-up names sound so... wanky. It's not your fault. Blame Tolkien.
I've basically enjoyed the writing of exactly one fantasy author (no, not Tolkien) who uses very 'ordinary' and Western Europe rooted naming conventions, and all the fantasy I write has people with steadfastly ordinary sounding names, whether made-up or not, and that's because I like my writing to feel grounded in reality, and also because I want to be able to come up with original names off the top of my head that aren't going to mean I've accidentally named my character 'poo-head'. Thus I use Western European rooted naming conventions and since I'm writing in a Western European styled setting, that works just fine for me. Let other people branch out. I'm not trying to get published or to forward a cause with my writing, I really don't care if the setting is 'standard' - stories for me are about people. The rest is just set-dressing.
On a side note, look at the modern fiction you read, or films you watch. Mostly the characters have pretty deliberately 'ordinary' names. If they have a more unusual name it's probably making some sort point or is at least a talking point. We want to be able to self-insert when we read fiction, or at least to not have the characters weird name distance us from the story. When you name a character Alythestra Fairybuttons I feel her name rising up like this huge barrier between me and the character, I can't take her seriously, I can't connect to her. If she was just called 'Alyth' I have a moment's pause to think "Isn't that a town in Perthshire?" and then I move on to the important bit: the story.
Now, obviously this doesn't address the issue that nothing but rampantly westernised fiction, fantasy and otherwise, leaves a large section of people marginalised. But (a) I really don't think giving someone a fantastical polysyllabic name is really going to make a huge difference to that, (b) I do not touch race issues on the internet, and (c) you by your own admission aren't exactly branching out beyond Western Europe either, aside from your passing reference.
In other words, I'm the exact person you're targeting in that post. So I really doubt there's much of a middle ground to be found.
Basically, I just don't really see how OF, ME and P-Celtic (or indeed Q-Celtic) are so much more original and daring than Germanic. It's still all old British. If you're going to lambaste people for not branching out you should probably be putting your money where your mouth is both in terms of the cultures you're portraying and the etymology of your naming conventions. If not, expect people to nit-pick. You make passing reference to non-WE settings/naming conventions, but then you say 'I use ME/OF/P-Celtic myself' and effectively hamstring your whole argument because seriously, that is no better, no different from just using Germanic, or just using Norse - or just using Q-Celtic.
Do feel free to come and join the discussion on my blog. Everyone's welcome.
I appreciate the offer but I'd rather be scathing and sarcastic from a distance.
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Date: 2011-01-15 07:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 07:21 pm (UTC)How fashionably cynical of you. I never 'give up' entirely on anything.
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Date: 2011-01-15 08:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 08:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 08:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 08:51 pm (UTC)I have no problem with disagreement, I just want it kept polite.
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Date: 2011-01-15 08:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 03:51 am (UTC)this year I've encountered a lot of people with shitty flu's, and while I can tell I'm carrying, my immune system is kicking its ass.
by this gloriously unscientific reasoning, I declare the above potentially true. I have been, in general, a *lot* less ill this year than last
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Date: 2011-01-16 11:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-17 08:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-18 04:16 pm (UTC)