Ignorance is...

[andrewducker]

Apparently only 22% of people know that Easter is about Jesus.

At least, that's what the article says. If you look at the actual questions that got that result, it's clear that only 22% of the population _care_ about Jesus and his relationship with The Easter Bunny.

[Poll #1371630]

Comments

[johnbobshaun.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit hazy on the whole good/bad thing in this instance.

I think the level of ignorance of the pre-Christian origins of Easter as a festival is probably a bad thing though.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

I agree.

I'd be interested to know what those levels are, mind you.

Hmm, what about people who think that the holiday is to 'celebrate Spring'? Are they basically right, or ill informed because they don't know the history?

Hmmm

[sigmonster.livejournal.com]

They're right, of course. Did the Easter Bunny die in vain?

The purpose of the holiday is not a fixed thing, or in any way dependent on the contingencies of history; it's why it's re-performed now, this year. So every reason to celebrate is valid for that celebrant - unlike a question about "Why do we celebrate Easter on moveable dates as we do?", for which answers are historically bound and can be described as true ofr false.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Yes but the fact that it is a public holiday has to have a reason, surely?

Maybe I'm just hung up because it's the only Bank Holiday we get! (except the December ones)

[sigmonster.livejournal.com]

Sure the holiday has a reason. The slow and opposed rise of the Victorian and Edwardian working class which eventually won the Factory Acts, other legislative relief, and the bank holidays. (Until 1871, there was a common-law holiday on Good Friday, but no statute law applied (taken from Wikipedia).)

[andrewducker]

You mean Passover then?

Or are you referring to Imbolc, which is traditionally a fair bit earlier?

If you're talking about Eostre then you're on very dodgy grounds, historically speaking...

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

If you're talking about Eostre then you're on very dodgy grounds, historically speaking...
Why do you say that?

[andrewducker]

Because the only reference to it is a single sentence in Bede, dating from the ninth century. There's no information about Eostre other than that - nothing from any other scholars, the Romans, or anyone else. There's a lot of dubiety as to whether there's any accuracy to his original statement at all.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

To Ostara/Eostre/Aoestar/gdkjhehs or to the Spring Equinox?

[andrewducker]

Oestre

Ostara is definitely the German name for the same holiday - but its roots are similarly shrouded in mystery.

The Spring Equinox was undoubtedly celebrated a long time ago, but exactly how is lost in the mists.

[johnbobshaun.livejournal.com]

I was being unspecific deliberately. Insert your favorite Spring Equinox festival containing symbols of rebirth and fertility celebrating the passing of Winter here.

[andrewducker]

"Dr Who Day" - celebrating the end of the previous regeneration and the beginning of the new, or (in minor celebrations) the beginning of a new companion and the ending of the old.

I look forward to the glorious new episode this year, and its symbolising of the end of the old year and the regeneration of the new.

[robhu.livejournal.com]

ROFL

[johnbobshaun.livejournal.com]

Sure why not? In a thousand years, kids in silver space suits will be hunting for little blue boxes in their moon garden. ;-)

[kashandara.livejournal.com]

What percentage of the rest recognise it as a spring festival appropriated by Christianity?

[pennski.livejournal.com]

Icon love!

Ooh you and your absolutes!

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Of course lack of caring about Christianity cannot possibly be ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But I know you know that

If by ‘lack of caring’ in this sense you mean that people don’t care that the Easter Bank Holiday weekend is due to a religious festival, my concern is that if it’s shown that people don’t care then they might abolish the holiday.

If you’re going to abolish religious bank holidays of course then they should be replaced – my mother, for example, objected to working on Maunday Thursday (the day before Good Friday) as she is a Catholic and it is a religious holiday. I’m not a Catholic, I don’t care about me having the day off. I do care that she was denied it. So perhaps a system where a people can nominate their own religious bank holidays – I’d love a day off at the Spring Equinox (which I in fact get at Easter, it originally way back when being basically the same thign and all) and at Beltane and Samhuinn (which I have to book off as holiday). The difference would be that you nominate these holidays and you have a right to take them regardless of work pressures (as opposed to holiday which needs to be approved). This could work at individual level or corporate – a bank could nominate itself as Zoroastrian for example, and be legally closed every 7th Wednesday (or whatever their holidays happen to be)

Theoretically? Yes. Practically? Head spinnage.

If people stop caring at all we are in danger of losign all bank holidays – which means no time off at Christmas. Personally I think the winter solstice celebration is fundamentally important to society, and this would be a bad thing.

If by ‘lack of caring about Christianity’ you mean a loss of respect for people’s religion, then ‘bad’

If by ‘lack of caring about Christianity’ you mean at managerial and governmental levels whereby we become in a wholly secular society, then ‘good’ (although see above where this has to be done carefully with respect to people’s genuine faith and to the religious underpinnings (allbethey only nominally religious) of western society.

I abstained from that question but overall I’d say any lack of caring is a bad thing. People don’t care enough. People shouldn’t stop caring. There should just be equality of care.

Lxxx

Re: Ooh you and your absolutes!

[andrewducker]

Of course lack of caring about Christianity cannot possibly be ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But I know you know that

Of course it can - good and bad are just opinions, after all. I think it's great, for instance. I wish more people didn't care about Christianity, or any other religion. People in favour of Christianity would presumably think it was bad.

I do care that she was denied it.
I care if she tried to book it off a reasonable amount of time in advance and was denied. If she jut expected to get it off for free then I'm not so sympathetic.

So perhaps a system where a people can nominate their own religious bank holidays – I’d love a day off at the Spring Equinox
That's effectively what we have at work - our bank holidays are just added onto our holiday days and we can take them whenever we like - with the exception of Christmas and New Year (two days each one) where the whole company is shut.

There should just be equality of care.
I should be forced to care about whether people believe in Jesus?

Re: Ooh you and your absolutes!

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Of course it can - good and bad are just opinions, after all.
Yes, but the statement is so vague that in 99% of cases people will need a considerable amount more information before being able to have an opinion.

I do care that she was denied it. etc
Yes, she gave notice - in fact in this particular case she was denied it because she wanted it as a religious holiday and her boss was a fundamentalist atheist. Had she asked it for it off for other reasons she might have got it. Thinking about it, this could be part of the source of my dislike of fundamentalist atheism, and yes I know she should have taken her to court because believe me that was just the start of it but anyway she didn't and that's that.

That's effectively what we have at work - our bank holidays are just added onto our holiday days and we can take them whenever we like
Yes but presumably they need to be approved - if a whole department wanted to take Easter Monday off then it wouldn't be? My hypothesis was that you would get them automatically - with notice etc of course, perhaps by completing a form on commencement of employment stating which religious holidays you want to take (religion referring to a set of beliefs - if you're agnostic but believe you should have the 23rd of May off, then fine)

I should be forced to care about whether people believe in Jesus?
That's what I mean about the statement being ambiguous. You shouldn't care whether people believe in Jesus, but you should care (forced to care is a moot statement due to it's inherent impossibility) that, if they do, they have the right to be respected and not to be persecuted. To be cared about. As they should care about you. As everyone has a right to be cared about. What worries me is people not caring about others on the grounds that they are Christian/white/female/old/a banker/too intelligent/ginger/fat etc etc to the point where we have no society.

Largely I see this as a government thing. If the bank holiday were called Spring bank holiday, fine. To refer to it as Easter whilst people have no idea why is what is wrong.

Re: Ooh you and your absolutes!

[andrewducker]

she was denied it because she wanted it as a religious holiday and her boss was a fundamentalist atheist.

That's really, really wrong. I totally disapprove of that. I can understand why she didn't sue him, but I'd also understand if she set fire to his car.

That's what I mean about the statement being ambiguous. You shouldn't care whether people believe in Jesus, but you should care (forced to care is a moot statement due to it's inherent impossibility) that, if they do, they have the right to be respected and not to be persecuted.
Aaah. I'm absolutely on the side of _them_ being respected, if not their ideas. Everyone should be given a certain level of basic respect - it demeans us all to treat each other badly.

Re: Ooh you and your absolutes!

[xquiq.livejournal.com]

Aaah. I'm absolutely on the side of _them_ being respected, if not their ideas.

I agree with this.

At a basic level, I don't see why anyone should get a particular right because of their beliefs. This includes wearing particular things, taking certain breaks. To implement this would be somewhat difficult however, as to do so you're probably either giving the rights to all & leaving them open to interpretation, or denying rights to all & thus making the workplace less flexible for everyone.

On a more pragmatic level, I don't believe in making life difficult for people (so if someone wishes to wear a cross / headscarf / bangle as long as it doesn't affect their ability to carry out their job effectively, I don't really care).

Where I can get a bit pissy is around holidays though: I can be flexible, but ultimately if I get my holiday booking in first & it's approved, I don't expect to be forced to reschedule because of colleagues religious choices or e.g. kids holidays. I am more than happy to be asked, but I don't expect that anyone's beliefs or choices will take precedence unless there's some kind of emergency / crisis.

Re: Ooh you and your absolutes!

[a-pawson.livejournal.com]

I doubt it would be abolished, not least of all because I doubt bankers want to work any longer than the rest of us. Other countries have public (bank) holidays to celebrate non-religious events. It would probably be a good thing if we did likewise. Who knows, it may even encourage people to learn a little about our history.

[ladysisyphus.livejournal.com]

Wait, what do you mean by 'it' in, if 'it' were true?

Gasp, shock, the hyper-commercialized version of a religious holiday has overwritten the religious connotations of that holiday in the public mind, amazement and terror, never before in human history has such a thing happened. Next everyone will be crying about how those kids today don't even remember who St. Valentine was.

If they'd walked into an actual church of praying Christians and gotten that response, I might be concerned, like I'd be concerned if they'd walked into a mosque and gotten a bunch of blank stares if they'd asked, so, what's Ramadan? But asking people outside a religious community about the specific meaning of a holiday inside the tradition, especially when there's a secular analogue to the holiday you quite nearly can't escape, and then clutching pearls and groping for the nearest fainting couch when people prefer chocolate to zombie_Jesus? Please. Save your fake outrage, you terribly persecuted majority.

I mean, at least around Christmas, you put up manger scenes and 'Jesus is the reason for the season' tags. You don't really see happy plastic crucifixion tableaus on every street corner come Easter. (But maybe you should!)

[andrewducker]

Wait, what do you mean by 'it' in, if 'it' were true?

That Easter and Jesus are connected at all. I know that historically they are connected - there is no ignorance in my head about this fact. I don't _believe_, but I am not ignorant of the beliefs and historical celebrations.

I mean, at least around Christmas, you put up manger scenes and 'Jesus is the reason for the season' tags.
Possibly in your somewhat old-fashioned country. Over here it's all "Pre-christmas sale, 25% off!" and jolly men in Cola-Cola coloured suits :->

[ladysisyphus.livejournal.com]

So, do you mean, if it's true that Easter and Jesus have nothing to do with one another, or if it's true that people don't think Easter and Jesus have anything to do with one another?

[andrewducker]

If it's true that people don't know that there is a historical linkage between "Easter" (the public holiday) and "Jesus" (the religious figure).

Because I don't think that is true. I think people know that. I just don't think they care. At least, not over here in the glorious land of Secularity :->

[ladysisyphus.livejournal.com]

Ahh, got it. Sorry, not deliberately trying to be obtuse, just having trouble getting my brain going (which is a problem, because one of my classes is about to start).

Yeah, over here I'd say that there are probably a whole mess of people who know and don't care -- it's just that the people who care, care a whole hell of a lot. And they'll let you know about how much they care, whether you want to or not.

[andrewducker]

Didn't think you were being obtuse :->

Good luck with the class!

[pigeonhed.livejournal.com]

There's a difference between not 'believing' in the Easter miracle and not 'caring' about it. Regardless of the former I would say that a lack of 'care' is a bad sign. Many people do believe, and whether you agree or not, not caring about other people's views is surely always a bad thing?

[andrewducker]

Aaah, I meant care in a positive sense. I negatively care about this, insofar as I think that it's a good thing that people don't associate Easter with Jesus. I certainly don't think of it as a bad thing that most people don't make the association.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

You have to associate Easter with Jesus. If you're not going to associate it with Jesus, or with paganism, as its roots are in Oestara, don't call it Easter.

[andrewducker]

I don't associate it with Jesus or Oestara. And shall continue to call it Easter.

Much as I shall continue to call the cultural celebration on the 25th of December "Christmas", despite having no belief in the existence of Christ.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

If invited you to a party in celebration of Hedricnest on July 29th and everyone was going, would you go and not once ask what Hedricnest was?

[andrewducker]

I have a sonmewhat nuanced view :->

I'm personally interested in the history of things - and that's why I ticked "BAD" when it came to people being ignorant of the Christian associations of the holiday.

And it would depend on the significance of the celebration.

If it was a bunch of people who actively believed in Hedricnest, and were going to celebrate its gloriousness, then I would feel out of place and would probably decline (and I didn't go to a RC christening once for this very reason).

If it's something like Christmas, which is nowadays a cultural celebration for no particularly extant reason other than there always having been a celebration on that date, then I happily join in the jumping up and down, shouting "Huzzah!" and drinking mulled wine.

If it's something in-between, like Beltane, then I make a decision depending on the kind of celebration that's going on. The Beltance Fire lot, for instance, are inspired by Beltane mythology, but it's not a religious rite, so I'm fine just wandering along and going "Ooooh" at the pretty bits. If I was invited to a Beltane party then I'd really want to know exactly what kind of celebration was going on before deciding if it was something I should be involved in, both for my sake, and for the other people there.

When it comes to Easter, I tend to place it in the same camp as Christmas "Cultural celebration of historical interest that coincides with school holidays and Dr Who being on the TV.". I'm glad I know a bit about its history, but I don't feel I need to be part of it in order to take a general interest.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Yes but you know. The question here was of ignorance.

[andrewducker]

You said "If you're not going to associate it with Jesus, or with paganism, as its roots are in Oestara, don't call it Easter."

And I was saying that the name of the celebration was culturally set, and that even if I associate Easter with chocolate bunnies then I shouldn't have to go around calling it a different name.

[cybik.livejournal.com]

By the same token, we shouldn't use all the month names since they're based on the names of Roman gods, though. Meanings change over a couple of thousand years.

[supergee.livejournal.com]

Here is the answer.

[cybik.livejournal.com]

My views boil down to this:

Knowing history is good. Knowing religious (and therefore large parts of cultural) history is good. Being religious is bad. Respecting people based on what they do and who they are is good. Respecting religion is bad. Respecting someone who believes in fairy stories and nonsense more because they believe in said nonsense is bad.

[zz]

irrelevant.

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

Ignorance is bad, not caring about a religion that has a lot of power in several key developing areas in the world is, I feel, misguided and insular.

Bunnies!!! Yay!!!

[luckylove.livejournal.com]

I honestly don't care. I care enough to comment but not enough to answer the poll.