Very cool, if true

If you're going to be all complicated then you should explain in a comment :->

Oh - and welcome aboard!

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burkesworks.livejournal.com

The proposed introduction of ID cards/the NIR (and by extension the general salami-slicing of civil liberties) is the chief reason why I would no longer countenance voting Labour, though there are a number of other reasons, ranging from the near-abolition of universal student grants, through the occupation of Iraq, via the constant cosying up to corporatism and management "culture", to the recent demonisation of benefit claimants, and many points in between. "Staying up for Portillo" seems an age ago now.

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I know! 11 years that passed so quickly!

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I get the feeling the next election we will be "Staying up for Harman".

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meico.livejournal.com

Heh! The term "False Polychotomy" comes to mind... ;P

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wychwood

I usually vote Green, actually. I reckon that if the Scots want independence we should let them have it, and consider my vote based on (among other things) environmental issues, ID cards, equal rights, and war in the Middle East. I nearly always end up with the Greens anyway, but I do at least consider the issues!

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Bugger - I completely forgot the Green Party!

cangetmad is going to kill me!

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pisica.livejournal.com

It was great knowing you.

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loveandgarbage.livejournal.com

I don't think Labour should move rightwards - given the way in which they now occupy a centre right position on various issues; but as for moving leftwards and appealing to the core support? I am not sure what this would involve. British elections are generally won in the centre (the split anti-Thatcher vote being the exception).

On voting my vote is generally for civil liberties/equal rights/pro-EU/anti-independence. The Lib Dems are the only lot that tick all boxes (the Scottish greens being pro-independence)

Scott

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matgb

Agree with this—it's not the left/right position that they're at that's the problem, they're roughly in the centre and trying (but failing) to be all things to all people economically.

So assuming left/right has the 20C definition of 'economics', in order to regain support they need to move away from the extreme authoritarian centralism they've adopted, stop trying to play to the tabloid gallery and say what they're for.

Oh, my 'vote' is that I'm fortunate to be in an effective 3-way marginal where Labour are likely to plummet from holding the seat into third place.

If I lived in a Tory/Labour marginal my vote would b a much harder decision, based around polling and gut instinc ton where things are going to go—want them out, but don't want a Cameron landslide.

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cybik.livejournal.com

I might vote Green, because the enviroment is one of the issues I care about most. Other than that, it would be Lib Dem because they're the only major party who are at all left-wing. I am entirely opposed to ID cards, care a lot about equal rights and also was strongly opposed to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Oh, and I really care about student stuff, despite having just finished. Education is a big issue for me..

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Reasons I will be voting Labour:
A deeply flawed but improving NHS
A fragmented but improving education system
An economy that despite the gloom mongers is still ok, and much better than it was under the Tories
A huge reduction in crime
An active involvement in the EU
Civil Partnerships
Human rights legislation (despite 42 days etc)

Reasons I continue to campaign against Labour policies from within the party:
Iraq
ID Cards
42 days
Note these are all linked issues (as to a significant extent is Oil Prices and hence the economy)

From:

matgb

A deeply flawed but improving NHS
A fragmented but improving education system

I'll give you those, but they're arguable and PFI means improving but horribly indebted in both cases.

An economy that despite the gloom mongers is still ok, and much better than it was under the Tories

Sort of, but the economy was improving already near the end of Labour's tenure, and I've seena lot of analysiss that says Brown's just been very lucky rather than actually good—much of it pre-dating the current troubles.

A huge reduction in crime

Which has also happened across much of the western world, including in US states with vastly different approaches and similar—I've seen many many attempts to explain, including abortion, better education, kids that grew up under TV, kids that grew up post cold war, etc. But any one-nation-specific explanation, like "it's our policies what did it" just doesn't wash with me.

An active involvement in the EU

Like the promised referendum on introduction of the Euro? Or a negotiating position on the various attempts at sorting the constitution mess that could have created a document that had a chance of being ratified?

Thatcher was actively involved in the EU, it still got more centralised and less democratic. The Lib Dems would be as good if not better, so that's not a point I can give.

Civil Partnerships

Would've been brought in sooner if Lib Dems (or any real liberals) had been around, and only really happened as Red Ken forced Blair's hand.

Human rights legislation (despite 42 days etc)

The HRA that they've subsequently tried to overrule, repeal bits of, ignore or belittle? The FOI that they've hated ever since? '97-'01 term I'll give you, the '01-'05 term is questionable, since then? Awful.

I have moved to a constituency where Labour hold, but will almost certainly come 3rd next time, I'll be voting Lib Dem partially because our candidate is very close to me (ie actually left wing) and partially because it's the best chance of stopping the Tory—our sitting (very good) Labour MP is standing down so her personal vote will go (I'd have voted for her if she was going again).

Your reasons to vote Labour are either irrelevent or based around the incomplete '97 manifesto, the reasons not to are why I rejoined the Lib Dems 18 months ago.

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pisica.livejournal.com

I ticked 'I am not British' but depending on how long it is before a) the next election and b) the HO processes my citizenship application (assuming the current set of hoops to jump through doesn't get moved AGAIN), there's a chance I could vote. Which is why I picked 'ID cards' in the final question as guess who's in the first cohort to get the damn things?

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"Head rightwards to appeal to floating voters/the centre"

???

If Labour move rightwards they would NOT be in the centre ground, they would be firmly entrenched in the right. Arguably their policies aren't even a centre party's anymore, but a centre-right's.

Last radio button I clicked on somethign else as there was not a box for "everything they've done since coming into power with the exception of the minimum wage".

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Everything they've done since coming into power?

Civil Partnerships? Major reduction in crime? Northern Ireland Peace Process? Improved schools/health service?
Welsh and Scottish devolution? Human Rights Bill? Ant-descrimination laws re sexuality, disability, race and religion? Overall economic growth at a mostly sustainable level?

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I cannot argue with Civil Partnerships (though they don't really affect me personally), The NI Peace Process, Devolution (Though I would suggest there are still issue here to be sorted out such as Scottish MPs voting on English affairs not just UK affairs) and Anti-Discrimination laws. All fair points.

*Major* reduction in crime? Reduction in the REPORTING of crime maybe. The way in which crime statistics have been compiled has changed since Labour came to power so there is no way I am buying this. On the same token, I also don't believe there is a sudden upsurge in knife crime just because the newspapers have got hold of the subject either.

Improved schools? Not a chance. My sister is a head teacher and I hear about the problems with schools having no leeway to actually teach but rather get kids to pass exams. Consequently we have ended up in a situation where passing grades have been utterly devalued and even those with straight A's have major problems with maths, english, science and humanities. When universities are more interested in making kids take an exam of their own to determine their entrance rather than the GCSE and A-Level results, you know you have a problem. Maybe they could just close down a few more failing schools instead of funding their improvement...

Improved NHS? My other sister is a nurse and one of my friends is a Doctor. Recently they have fucked up the system of getting a job so badly that a huge amount of people either didn't get to apply for the job they wanted or were made redundant, this is DESPITE the fact there were jobs available! I'm also seeing far too much beaurocracy and not enough treating of patients. There is far too much waste in this area. Also the bollocks about everyone being treated in 6 months is fury-inducing. My grandad was pissed about for 18 months before they even PUT him on the waiting list. This is before we look at the closing of hospitals and merging them into one single hospital that could be miles further away. In my old area of Stourbridge alone there have been *4* hospitals closed down to allow for expansion of the major Russells Hall Hospital. That one is location the other side of the Merry Hill Shopping Centre. Good luck making it through the traffic in the rush hour if you are on the wrong side of it. The 'Golden Hour' will be spent in the Ambulance.

Human Rights bill was part of the EU laws, yes? I will concur that a Tory government might well have not signed up to it, but I'm dubious anyone left or centre would have declined.

The economy is in peril at the moment. To suggest that we are in anything other than a recession is a lie. Yes this is a global problem, but Labour have hardly been thrifty when we have years of economic growth. I'm not suggesting that Gordon Brown has been a bad Chancellor, but let's not talk up his achievements too far. Actually possibly his master stroke during his stint as Chancellor was handing the decision over interest rates to the Bank of England; shrewd move.

Now... lets add the 1997 promise by John Prescott with the Railways, ID cards, 42 days detention without charge, the systematic reduction of civil liberties and additions to the ways in which government and police can spy and store data on you, replacing poll tax with equally unfair council tax and allowing councils to set their own rates, removing the 10% tax band for those on a low income whilst reducing the higher band from 22% to 20% thus screwing over the poorest while helping the middle classes, A lack of NHS Dentistry, Inheritance tax, the war in Iraq and the 45 minute dossier, failure to deal with prison overcrowding, failure to deal with energy crises such as making a decision on nuclear energy and windfarms etc, and a promise to end lies and sleeze in politics (ha!).

...

If I sound bitter it is because I voted Labour in 1997 with youthful high hopes of an improving country. I feel like I have been let down far too often by them.

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To suggest that we are in anything other than a recession is a lie.
1.8% growth over the last year. While the US is almost certainly in a recession, the UK is still in growth. We may end up in a recession over the next while, but I've not seen any figures which show that the economy is shrinking.

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Recession is 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth. There is a rule that once you have identified that there is a recession, you are all ready in the middle of it, but the point is that comparing to 12 months ago doesn't disprove a recession today.

There are usually warning signs of a recession in the stock market. Over half of the time that the drops of 10% in the stock market occur there has been a recession. The FTSE has dropped from 6750 in November to 5325 as of close yesterday. This is a drop of 21%. This in itself doesn't prove anything directly, but it implies strongly the economy is due for one.

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Oh, I'm not saying that we aren't probably due for one - just that we're not provably in one already.

I started saying "The housing market is fucked any minute now!" about 5 years ago, so I'm used to being the pessimistic one :->

As a note, I don't trust Labour as far as I could throw them - they're far too authoritarian for my liking, and perfectly happy to lie to the public when they think they can get away with it. I do think they've done a lot of good - but they've also messed up a lot of things by worrying about the media too much and feeling they had to be seen to do things.

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"I started saying "The housing market is fucked any minute now!" about 5 years ago, so I'm used to being the pessimistic one"

You might be late, but it looks like it is finally due for a correction. I dont think the bottom is gonna fall out the market like some do, but I think a year and a bit of decline is on the cards. Hopefully if I time it right I can get a decent home and a decent mortgage to boot.

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The problem with the FTSE and most economic guages is that they are dependent on confidence and susceptible to scaremongering, rumour and even outright lies.
I am not talking Brown up, just saying don't talk him down in self-fulfilling prophecies all the time.

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Doing a bit of digging:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=192

Certain sectors are in recession - manufacturing and construction, for instance - but other areas still have decent growth.

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Ah ok. It could well be I have only heard about certain sectors then. Working Lunch and other Business News have suggested were in a recession already. I'll accept that maybe we aren't quite in one just yet as an economy, but I am willing to bet by the end of the year we will be.

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I work in the NHS, my sister has worked in the NHS for over 20 years. Yes it has problems, yes the schools have problems, these are long-term issues but there have been improvements too.

I don't believ the Council tax is unfair in principle, but sometimes flawed in execution (usually by Tory-run councils).

NHS dentistry is a loss, but it was pretty much destroyed by the Tories anyway. The tories supported Iraq, the Lib Dems support Afghanistan.

And yes as someone who fought the Tories throughout the 80s and 90s 1997 was a glorious dawn that has turned into a cloudy day. The trouble is that i see people like you viewing that cloudy day as a torrential rainstorm. It isn't. Labour has fucked up on many things, and many of their promises have not yet been fulfilled or taken as far as we would like, but there have still been many many improvements that NO OTHER PARTY could have achieved in the past decade.

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Well I'm happy to agree that our perspectives on the subject of the Labour Government are different, I'm just not willing to change my perspective.

It should be pointed out that I will probably never vote for the Tories, but I will continue to vote Lib Dem unless another party gives me reason to believe they deserve my vote more. I'm not the sort of voter who subscribes to a specific party, just one that looks for certain traits and core promises and the will to deliver upon them. If Labour made significant inroads into their failures and moved back to the centre left, I would reconsider.

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vereybowring.livejournal.com

I shall be voting SNP, this is based on all the other parties spend all their time worrying about their media personas whilst at least the SNP seem to care slightly more about what they want to say. I agree the SNP also do this but since they got into Scotland in at least partial charge they have done much of what they said they would and admit more readily when they screw anyone about.
Actually it is mainly due to politics in the last few years being a choice of lesser evils and I default to my childhood days when that nice woman Winnie Ewing lived along the street and was very pro scottish but was a very genuine person. I know the party in question has changed considerably in the lst 20 years but hey, stick to what you know.

As for labour, they have pissed nearly everybody off, but then any party actually in charge does anyway otherwise they would never get voted out and we'd still be whigs. The economy is more affected by large scale business than politics except in china where it's heading that way rapidly too. The middle east was a mistake and they should have admitted it was financial more than political but Saddam did need to go - as do all dictators the west have decided to back for since WW2. The one I like most is we're now fighting the Afghans who we funded and trained - the SAS were pulled out of their training camps there only to be told to go hunt down the people they'd just left (why didn't they just leave them where they were and get them to destroy the camps before leaving ?).
I expect my views are very askew but then I am a fan of Kevin Smith.

From:

http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/

I tend to agree about Saddam - my main objection was to the lying, not the invasion. Of course, knowing that they were going to completely fuck up the rebuilding tended to make me sceptical about the invasion part too...

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I'm an old-fashioned Welsh mining valley socialist without a party (the liberals are about the closest at present) and my voting behaviour is based on multiple things to do with class, gender, equality, labour rights, access to education, public services that remain public, decent transport.... And I cannot abide nationalists of any stripe. Prejudice is prejudice, however it's wrapped up.

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I'm torn about the SNP - because the vast majority of them aren't prejudiced against the English - they just don't want their country run by another one. Which doesn't seem _that_ unreasonable.

From:

red-phil.livejournal.com

inst the current PM and his predecessor Scottish?

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http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/

And the chances of the next one being Scottish...

From:

fannymagnate.livejournal.com

I believe they are called the "Scottish National Party", not the "Scottish Nationalist Party". It is highly disingenuous to imply the SNP are "nationalists". I prefer the label "nation-ist".

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Well, I am not anti-independence (or federalism or whatever). Indeed, I'd like to see more regional devolution throughout the UK (and Europe, come to think of it). But I am unhappy with any organisation whose explicit aim is expressed around a concept of nation or nationalism, because it contains within it the potential to degenerate into 'them and us' thinking with all the horrors that that can lead to. I'm unhappy with agenda predicated on imposed identity. Alex Salmond a while back told the Shetland Islanders they are Scots, even though they don't themselves choose to take that identity. The BNP tells people whether they are English or not based on skin. Anyone of any mixed background may find themselves subjected to labeling not of their choice because it fits some other person's comfort zone. I was not, in fact, thinking of the SNP in particular anyway but of the wider issue of politics based on ideas of nation/unity by birth or culture. Cultural identity is hugely important and should be protected but national pride can all too easily degenerate into some very bad things.
Oh, and I'm one of those people who doesn't drop into a neat nation category. I'm Anglo-Welsh. That probably contributes to why I don't go for the nation approach: I don't fit the nice categories.

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makyo.livejournal.com

In theory, I should vote LibDem, because they have the collection of policies that seems most attractive to me. However, they'll most likely field the same no-hoper, unelectable buffoon in my constituency as they have done for the last couple of elections.

From:

red-phil.livejournal.com

Head rightwards to appeal to floating voters/the centre.

Shouldn't that be leftwards towards the centre?

My main gripe with labour is the general errosion of civil liberties and the increases in tax without any matching increase in services.

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cheekbones3.livejournal.com

I have fingers crossed for Labour using some form of PR to rescue themselves to an extent. I also hope they'll abandon such nonsense as ID cards. I fear touchy-feely Tories, the give me the willy-willies.

I also fear that there's a generation now that doesn't remember Thatcher, and can vote. A bad combination!

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