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Date: 2008-04-25 08:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-25 08:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-25 01:06 pm (UTC)Replying to your actual point, though, the problem is that it if people want to do something like that in a space with a previously-agreed set of social rules it's going to cause all sorts of problems: so an OSBP room party is one thing, but taking over public space at a con is right out.
And you don't want to have to tidy up the mess when someone who doesn't know what's going on tries to join in....
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Date: 2008-04-25 02:40 pm (UTC)It was a fun day, let me tell you.
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Date: 2008-04-26 12:43 am (UTC)misread as "defending a vagina".
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Date: 2008-04-25 02:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 09:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 09:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 12:04 pm (UTC)I have nothing against attacks on what was actually done - there are some, and that kind of debate is fine. But I'm totally fed up with seeing attacks on what wasn't done.
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Date: 2008-04-26 12:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 12:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 12:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 12:12 pm (UTC)And, generally speaking, I consider that most people are capable of dealing with conversation and talking about things. I don't usually think that people need to be protected from being asked a question about what they're up for. Pestered, harrased or insulted, yes. But asked a question???
(Admittedly, for sensitive questions, talking to the person as a person first is obviously important - but from the original writeups, this was generally what was happening unless people were actively volunteering)
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Date: 2008-04-26 12:27 pm (UTC)Furthermore, speaking from years of experience of people who think it's okay, in any situation and environment, however casual or unfamiliar their relationship to me personally, to ask me what I do in bed purely because it's with a different gender from most, no, 'just a question' is not always automatically okay just because it doesn't entail actual harrasment or insult.
And again I say, add OSBP and the GSFs and look where either colour of badge gets you.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 12:33 pm (UTC)I do agree that sometimes these things are objectifying. But I've been at plenty of parties where people have been experimenting. Or just plain getting off with each other. And that's felt like part of the human condition. Sure, sometimes it might involve things you don't want to be, and you learn who you feel comfortable with, and what things to avoid in future. But I feel that saying up front "These topics are off limits." or "These acts are always bad, even if everyone involved is ok with them." is intrinsically inimicable to the kind of society I want to live in.
I do agree that going deeply into people's personal life very early can be bad - and sometimes triggeringly so. And I think that if the OSBP had been a room-party, or a private event I'd have been a hell of a lot more comfortable with it - that kind of thing in public is just going to make people uncomfortable.
*sigh*
I don't think it was a good idea - but neither do I think it was the apocalypic clusteruck that some people are making it out as. And because I've spent more time in the last few days dealing with people that think the latter than the former, frequently in uninformed ways, I'm being oversensitive. For which, my apologies.
(FWIW the first time I met you you were waving around a sex toy and discussing in the middle of your living room how you were far too tight for sex with boys - this may well contribute to people feeling you're ok to talk about what you lesbosians get up to in the bedroom)
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Date: 2008-04-26 12:39 pm (UTC)And yes, you're right, I'm quite obviously okay about it. But actually I was more using me as an example - every lesbian you know has had to put up with these questions. I actually get them less than most, I assume because no one wants to think about fat girls having sex. Which sort of goes to prove where the supposed innocent spirit of enquiry actually tends.