Sex

[andrewducker]

I've read a lot of opinions on the whole boob debacle over the last few days. The absolute best one is here. It's long, but that's what makes it worth reading, because it captures the complexity of both that particular situation and real life in general.

Comments

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Indeed. Thank you for the recommendation.

[robhu.livejournal.com]

I'm just amazed (although perhaps I shouldn't be) at how many people have come out to bash anyone who thought [Bad username or site: theferret' / @ livejournal.com]'s idea wasn't something that should have him crucified. I said something like that (although I don't personally like the idea I think people should be allowed to do it if they want) and got buried under a torrent of rage.

[akicif.livejournal.com]

Careful! You mean theferrett....

Replying to your actual point, though, the problem is that it if people want to do something like that in a space with a previously-agreed set of social rules it's going to cause all sorts of problems: so an OSBP room party is one thing, but taking over public space at a con is right out.

And you don't want to have to tidy up the mess when someone who doesn't know what's going on tries to join in....

[blackmanxy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I spent the majority of yesterday arguing with people who believe that theferrett is a horrible, misogynist monster and that the OSBP was nothing more than a cheap excuse to let a bunch of poorly-socialized geeks feel up on some boobies. Even saying that I agreed the OSBP was a bad idea (and I think it was in implementation, though not so much in concept -- not that I was going to tell them the latter part) wasn't enough. You had to express the same kind of outrage, disgust, and hostility toward theferrett they had in order to not be accused of "defending a vile idea."

It was a fun day, let me tell you.

[zz]

"defending a vile idea."

misread as "defending a vagina".

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Thanks. It was a brilliant essay with worthwhile comments, and I wouldn't necessarily have found it otherwise.

[marrog.livejournal.com]

I like this one.

[marrog.livejournal.com]

Oh, and on a related note, I'm interested that I've yet to see someone commenting on the disastrous compound you get when you add the Open Source Boob Project to The Geek Social Fallacies.

[andrewducker]

Meh. It's not equivalent. Not because it's equating breast-touching to kicking in the balls (I can live with that), but because it's leaving out that at no point was anybody to be grabbed without permission, and assuming that anyone not wearing a pin is open to being kicked. Which merely reinforces the misunderstandings that I've seen all over the damned internet since this started.

I have nothing against attacks on what was actually done - there are some, and that kind of debate is fine. But I'm totally fed up with seeing attacks on what wasn't done.

[marrog.livejournal.com]

I think it's excellent because it highlights what would happen in a situation where you have three stances: on, off, and... maybe-not-asked-yet, and exactly how that middle-ground would end up being interpreted. Also re: permission see my comment above regarding GSF1.

[andrewducker]

Except those were not the three stances of the original thing. They were "Ok to be asked, do not want to be asked and no stance on being asked." - there was no "You may just walk up to me and grab me" stance.

[marrog.livejournal.com]

How do you find out whether someone has a stance on being asked?

[andrewducker]

From what I can tell, with the original occurrence (a small group of people) this wasn't a problem - because they were doing it with friends and friends of friends.

And, generally speaking, I consider that most people are capable of dealing with conversation and talking about things. I don't usually think that people need to be protected from being asked a question about what they're up for. Pestered, harrased or insulted, yes. But asked a question???

(Admittedly, for sensitive questions, talking to the person as a person first is obviously important - but from the original writeups, this was generally what was happening unless people were actively volunteering)

[marrog.livejournal.com]

I actually just thought it was a fun entry, and wasn't planning to express my feelings on the whole thing. But here goes: I can see exactly how the whole thing happened, I've been in similar situations/games/agreements in similar party/gathering events which in hindsight always felt sleazy, counter-productive, and ultimately objectification masquerading as sexual freedom. I don't care how open and communicative that particular group of people were, or how 'enlightened' - and reading theferrett's post on it I found him from his language-use to be anything but, whatever his intentions and genuine decency underneath (which I'm sure he is).

Furthermore, speaking from years of experience of people who think it's okay, in any situation and environment, however casual or unfamiliar their relationship to me personally, to ask me what I do in bed purely because it's with a different gender from most, no, 'just a question' is not always automatically okay just because it doesn't entail actual harrasment or insult.

And again I say, add OSBP and the GSFs and look where either colour of badge gets you.

[andrewducker]

Hmmm. Kinda.

I do agree that sometimes these things are objectifying. But I've been at plenty of parties where people have been experimenting. Or just plain getting off with each other. And that's felt like part of the human condition. Sure, sometimes it might involve things you don't want to be, and you learn who you feel comfortable with, and what things to avoid in future. But I feel that saying up front "These topics are off limits." or "These acts are always bad, even if everyone involved is ok with them." is intrinsically inimicable to the kind of society I want to live in.

I do agree that going deeply into people's personal life very early can be bad - and sometimes triggeringly so. And I think that if the OSBP had been a room-party, or a private event I'd have been a hell of a lot more comfortable with it - that kind of thing in public is just going to make people uncomfortable.

*sigh*

I don't think it was a good idea - but neither do I think it was the apocalypic clusteruck that some people are making it out as. And because I've spent more time in the last few days dealing with people that think the latter than the former, frequently in uninformed ways, I'm being oversensitive. For which, my apologies.

(FWIW the first time I met you you were waving around a sex toy and discussing in the middle of your living room how you were far too tight for sex with boys - this may well contribute to people feeling you're ok to talk about what you lesbosians get up to in the bedroom)

[marrog.livejournal.com]

I think most of the damage was caused by theferrett's textbook misogynistic objectifying language all the way through the post. I think I fell a little in love with tablesaw when I saw his commentary on it.

And yes, you're right, I'm quite obviously okay about it. But actually I was more using me as an example - every lesbian you know has had to put up with these questions. I actually get them less than most, I assume because no one wants to think about fat girls having sex. Which sort of goes to prove where the supposed innocent spirit of enquiry actually tends.