Very cool, if true

Was I close?

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You can see my answer at the top.

It wasn't aimed at any one person though. More like 6 sets of my friends.

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Yes, I saw the answer, was more wondering if it was Mo's situation that had prompted it. Which I felt comfortable asking because it seemed like you were doing this to be open and so on.
6? Really? I can think of about four....wow. We know lots of people that should really listen to us :D

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I have another piece of advice that I finally started to follow for myself recently: Go with your gut.

My whole life I've been second-guessing myself, keeping at things I want to give up, giving up things I want to keep, taking the sensible route instead of the exciting one. I went to study English instead of Art or Music. I stuck at uni instead of quitting for a good long while and going back (the funny thing is, I'd probably still have a degree by now, and a better one at that). For a year after I realised I was gay I had myself convinced that I was just imagining it to make my own life harder. When I fell in love with someone half way around the world, I was determined that it had to be a stupid internet crush that would dissipate on us meeting because that sort of thing just doesn't happen.

Every single time I've second guessed myself- particularly my emotions - in anything important in my life, I've been wrong. Every time I've gone with my gut reaction, I've been right.

Living in the same place with Bex isn't always easy, and we've both had second thoughts about it over the past couple of weeks. But my gut feeling is to keep her close. A lot of the usual problems with living with an ex-partner aren't there - we don't fight, there's no risk of us sleeping together, we're not endlessly rehashing the relationship.

Yes, there are aspects that aren't entirely healthy. There's a middle-ground of not-relationship, closer-than-friendship that we're sitting in that doesn't sit quite right with either of us. But it's not forever, and it's not going to make anything any worse - I've pulled Bex into The Waiting Place (as Ari and Dr Seuss would have it) with me, and because she cares, she's allowed it. It'll be over soon - sooner than most people believe I think and judging by my state of mind at the moment I think sooner than I'd previously worried.

Yes, occasionally it hurts me and irritates Bex. But honestly, you do not want to see the state I'd be in right now without her around to calm me and keep me sane. The heartache she causes is worth having her around. The extra discomfort is worth what we keep. You have to remember that a huge part of what I'm going through right now has nothing to do with her, and she's better equipped than anyone to help me through it.

Also? You're remembering who this is, right? I realise it doesn't look like it sometimes at the moment, but this is still me, and it's still Bex. Have a little faith.

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Oh, totally. And as I've said before - general principles only apply statistically. This post was _completely_ not about me having a go at you/Bex. Or Padmini/Fergus. Or Ailsa/her ex. Or Mike/Tam. Or anyone else.

It was more my amusement at the pattern of having advice to give that I know other people won't listen to, because I didn't when it was given to me, and wondering if that happened to other people too.

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We both said we'd reassess things in Jan/Feb and decide whether living together was the right thing, and if it wasn't, we'd make new arrangements. We both - at around the same point - had our doubts. We're both feeling better about it again all the time, for all that we still have misgivings about our current relationship. Yes, I'm still having a shit time. It's really not all, or even mostly, about Bex, and most people don't know that (although you do). Which sort of goes to show that whatever a situation looks like from the outside, the only people who really know what's going on are the people involved. Which is another good piece of advice no one ever pays attention to.

Aaaanyway, I'm afraid I have choir on Wednesday. You might fancy liasing with Deblet and Berry though, as they're also going to the flicks on Weds.

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Cool - I'll drop emails around!

(and you'll note that I didn't bring you up in this post. Any advice I have that's specific to you you'll be getting in person. Or on IM. Not via an oblique LJ post.)

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(*grins* You'll note that my initial 'politely butt out' comment was not in reply to one of yours)

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Ooh, so it wasn't :->

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Oh - and you're totally right about the gut feeling thing. When it comes to guiding your life along lines that matter _to you_ you need to follow your gut. Tempered by your head, of course, but your gut has to lead.

Have tried to catch you online a few times in the last few days, but not found you online. Wanna come to the cinema on Wednesday with me/Ed? Going to see Dan In Real Life, which has been getting good reviews, and has Juliette Binoche in it.

It's Orange Wednesdays, so we can probably get a cheap deal on stuff (I get in free, and you/Ed can split the cost of the single ticket you get between you).

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Hmmm.

Ok. I'll give this a try.

The gut thing. I realise it's relevance to what you're saying in this comment, but I have no strong opinion or response to it. It's an interesting issue and one I'd be happy to chat to you about in person, when we have more leisure, and not when I'm crouched over a laptop sweltering. I think it's a good thing you're trying a new way of doing things, and I'm all for listening to one's gut as a source of information, so good luck, I think that could be a healthy move for you.

The rest of it. Two main points, really. As you've said to me several times, and with increasing accuracy over the past 18 months or so, I don't actually know you and Bex very well. I know almost nothing about your relationship. And I know absolutely nothing about how it's going right now living in the same house together.

This doesn't mean I don't have an opinion about it. And it doesn't mean I'm not going to express it when it's releveant. Andy had a poll, that's the advice that I would give, so I told him that. I didn't tell *you* that, and you didn't ask, so I wouldn't tell you that. This is public, so I can see that it would seem a bit cheeky, so you can have a go at me about that if you like, but I also wouldn't refrain from saying it in public if someone else asked me, even as obliquely as Andy did in his poll. If you asked me, I would tell you, and then you can say 'I think you're wrong and here's why', but I don't honestly expect or even want that, and I don't *think* you do either, given that we don't have that type of friendship.

My opinion comes from my personal experience and from outside experience of several other relationships and so on, as everyone's does. So, as I say, am perfectly happy to change it given further information and so on, but right now, I absolutely do not think exes (and that includes you and Bex) should stay living together after they've broken up, for any substantial amount of time. You and Bex may be the exception that proves the rule, and indeed, nothing would make me happier, but I'm not going to be convinced till much further along, and tbh, I didn't think you'd actually care that much about what I thought either way.

Secondly, I don't have faith, no. See the 'don't really know you' comment. You and Bex were great, are great (to the best of my knowledge), and hopefully will continue to be great. I'm passing judgement on the situation, not the people involved. I will probably be surprised by the things that humans do and achieve for the rest of my life, but I am no longer surprised that I am surprised by it. That surprise can be watching what I thought was the strongest relationship in the Western World degenerate into plate throwing (not you and Bex, btw) or assuming the same would happen again, and finding out I'm very wrong (hopefully you and Bex). For better or for worse, I'm pretty cynical, and having had the experience I've had, that's where I'm at right now.

People always believe they have the best grasp of the situation from outside it, and, as I've said, I don't even have my fingertips round it. It was an answer to a question, nothing more. I'll constantly reasses that answer as information comes in, and I appreciate you laying out the info that you did here, but my opinion is still unchanged. But why does it even matter?

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You are the only person out of the twenty five who took that poll to require reference to specific people. Indeed Andy himself was not referencing specific people. And no, you didn't address Andy with your answer. Your answer on his poll directly addressed myself and Bex, by name. On top of that you had the presumption to sign it from Andy as well as yourself.

Andy asked what the advice was, not at whom it was directed. Indeed, he wasn't even asking you to guess his advice - he was inquiring as to the advice others have found themselves giving in a similar fashion in their own experience. It wasn't a guessing game.

Not only, as you have you quite rightly observed, are you familiar with the ins and outs of our relationship only in passing bursts, but you're not even in the same country to be keeping track of what's going on.

If you, as you have just outlined, don't know me, don't know Bex, don't know the relationship, and don't know our current situation, why did you feel the need to, in a public forum, give your opinion in such deliberately emotive language?

If you're 'passing judgment' on 'the situation', please pick someone else's? There are plenty of other people, some of whom you know better, who are or recently have been in exactly the same boat, with a damn sight more water to bail out. Why are Bex and me the ones that come to mind instead of, say just for example, Padmini and Fergus (mentioned only because you know them a lot better than you do me)?

What irritates me most I think is that you've had the cheek to sign said message from both you and Andy. Andy is right here in the thick of it, has heard and seen more than almost anyone else, has been a rock and a mainstay for me, and is actually qualified to give an opinion. Please don't ally your own knowledge and judgment of the situation with his. There's just no comparison.

Why does it matter? It matters because you saw fit to give your opinion - a specific opinion answering a general question - in a public forum. You addressed myself and Bex, by name, there. You made a request of us. Then you drew attention to the answer you'd given by commenting on the post proper when Andy would obviously have been able to see your answer - it was right there.

You can call the form of your answer a mere turn of phrase if you like, you can call it a simple answer to Andy's question - no one else took it the way you did. I don't think I'm unreasonable in seeing it for the patronising 'plea for reason' that it appeared to be.

Believe me, if Bex and I were in a position to need saving from ourselves, there's a long queue in front of you equipped for the job.

Edited Date: 2008-01-16 03:39 am (UTC)

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First off, am sorry that I've upset you so much, it was never my intention. I'm writing back in the hope that it'll help things.

You are the only person out of the twenty five who took that poll to require reference to specific people. Indeed Andy himself was not referencing specific people. And no, you didn't address Andy with your answer. Your answer on his poll directly addressed myself and Bex, by name. On top of that you had the presumption to sign it from Andy as well as yourself.

I didn't think the poll referred to specific people. Don't be daft, it quite obviously doesn't. That was my presumption, in fact, not even presumption, cos I didn't actually think that Andy had anyone specific in mind either. That was me saying what had come to *my* mind, as I said before, being what I saw as a bit cheeky, but not very, for saying something online rather than in person, where there is a much wider audience.

I didn't address Andy, but I did answer him, as it was his lj, and his poll. I take your point, I did address you and Bex, you're right, but tbh, I absolutely didn't think that you'd even blink. I even thought there was an outside chane you might laugh, as my intention was more to hold up the stupidity of myself and Andy as an example of what not to do, rather than have a go at you. In fact, I didn't see it as 'having a go at you' at all. If it came across like that, then you can totally have my apology, wholeheartedly.

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The reason I signed it from me and Andy is because I had been told that you'd already been advised 'not to end up' like us, and Andy and I had already had a chuckle about how we were a warning story, and I, like I say, I thought you'd probably just tut and think 'As if we'd ever be as crap as them!' But you're right, it was presmumptous, and I'd certainly apologise to Andy if he was cross about it; that was me not thinking before I spoke, and not considering that it would be taken so seriously, which is my fault and I'm sorry for that.

Andy asked what the advice was, not at whom it was directed.

Not only, as you have you quite rightly observed, are you familiar with the ins and outs of our relationship only in passing bursts, but you're not even in the same country to be keeping track of what's going on.

Well, yes, that's what I was trying to say. But that doesn't negate having an opinion. An opinion is formed on the info one has. As I said, am happy to reform it at any point. I didn't know that expressing it would get me in such trouble, but it is one that I strongly believe in.

If you, as you have just outlined, don't know me, don't know Bex, don't know the relationship, and don't know our current situation, why did you feel the need to, in a public forum, give your opinion in such deliberately emotive language?

Because I feel it. And because I feel strongly about it. And because there was a poll. And because I don't mind saying to anyone that asks that that's what I believe. As I said, I felt it was only 'a bit' cheeky to do in public, but then I also thought that's something we've shared, is the not hiding your opinions, no matter how unpopular. It obviously was much more shocking to you, though, and I apologise because I can see that, as I didn't mean it like that. The emotive language was me being sad about Andy and I, rather than thinking that was what happening with you and Bex. Again, I can see that there's no reason that that would come across, and several other interpretations, so it could have been put better, certainly. Again, didn't think, and didn't think you'd care.

If you're 'passing judgment' on 'the situation', please pick someone else's? There are plenty of other people, some of whom you know better, who are or recently have been in exactly the same boat, with a damn sight more water to bail out. Why are Bex and me the ones that come to mind instead of, say just for example, Padmini and Fergus?

I didn't use P and F because they are moving out as soon as humanely possible, and have always said that they really want to. The one time I spoke to you about it you said that you thought it was doable. I can't think of anybody else in that situation right now, but do tell me if I have forgotten anyone. And like I say, I wasn't passing comment on the amount of water or, indeed, the success of bailing efforts, as I haven't a clue about either. I was saying that I don't think exes should live togther, and, foolishly, specified it to you two, cos I didn't think, didn't think you'd care, and even thought you might roll your eyes, as said above.

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What irritates me most I think is that you've had the cheek to sign said message from both you and Andy. Andy is right here in the thick of it, has heard and seen more than almost anyone else, has been a rock and a mainstay for me, and is actually qualified to give an opinion. Please don't ally your own knowledge and judgment of the situation with his. There's just no comparison.

Absolutely not. I can assure you that I wasn't trying to ally etc etc. I hopefully explained the reasons for doing that above, but the summary is that that was my presumption, and I would never try to say otherwise. (It's a small aside, but possibly important. I believe an opinion is an opinion is an opinion, and I have trouble with the 'qualified to give it' concept. I believe that verdicts, is maybe the right word, can vary hugely in qualifiedness (can't think of that word), but you can't judge how valid an opinion is, it's impossible. It's an opinion. Anyone can have one, and it's just as valid as the next. My verdict on you and Bex isn't worth squat, and I was trying to say that in my first comment, I know that. That's partly why I didn't think you'd even pause over it. But it doesn't stop me having a valid opinion. Opinions are valid just by being.)

Why does it matter? It matters because you saw fit to give your opinion - a specific opinion answering a general question - in a public forum. You addressed myself and Bex, by name, there. You made a request of us. Then you drew attention to the answer you'd given by commenting on the post proper when Andy would obviously have been able to see your answer - it was right there.

I *think* I've answered most of that already, let me know if I haven't. The request! I haven't addressed that. I honestly didn't think you'd either notice, or care, or do more than snort and think how crap Andy and I were and how you couldn't possibly be that bad. That was obviously stupid of me, and it feels weird to apologise for being stupid, but I will do if it helps. Plain thoughtlessness, rather than malice. I know that that probably won't help your anger much, but there it is.

I'm confused by the drawing of attention. I didn't remotely think of it as that. That was just a question to Andy, and I was having trouble seeing the poll results on this computer, and rather than logging back into my email and sending 'was I close?', I just wrote to him, cos that would do the same thing. Actually, cos there were hardly any comments (one other, I think) at that time, I was thinking 'cool, he'll probably answer at some point.'

You can call the form of your answer a mere turn of phrase if you like, you can call it a simple answer to Andy's question - no one else took it the way you did. I don't think I'm unreasonable in seeing it for the patronising 'plea for reason' that it appeared to be.

It was not a turn of phrase, any more than anything else is. It was an answer just by definition, but it was more than that as well, I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm just saying that it didn't occur to me that it would appear more than me being sad about Andy and me, hopeful that it wouldn't happen to you and Bex, and strongly getting across that I think exes shouldn't live together. I shouldn't have specified it, I can see that now, and I apologise. But the opinion is still the same. And just so you know, it was never intended as a plea for reason, patronising or otherwise. It didn't occur to me for a *second* that you listen to me :)

Believe me, if Bex and I were in a position to need saving from ourselves, there's a long queue in front of you equipped for the job.

Well, quite. Not only do I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I honestly wouldn't want the job if it came up; look how well I did with the last one!

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Okay. You're right in thinking, of course, that I totally uphold your right to whatever opinion you like, and that the opinion you have on the sitch with B and me is as sensible as anyone else's - indeed is pretty much the same as anyone else's. I'm sorry for implying - saying - that you weren't qualified to have or give an opinion. I guess what I found objectionable there was the emotive language followed by a 'but what do you care' in the comment - the juxtaposition was a little incongruous and infuriating.

I'm sorry if I seemed angry - I was, but not at your having an opinion or even expressing it really, just the manner and context. The manner and context seemed vastly inappropriate and out of place - not just a little bit cheeky - which is why I got so irritated. It was patently not a 'guess what Andy is thinking' poll.

Also, despite aspects of my life at present (both pertaining to Bex and not) being very personally traumatic at present (not that you're to know this necessarily), both Bex and I have tried to keep the whole thing very, very quiet, thus far successfully. Situations have a habit of attracting Drama once you get involved, so I guess your comment got me paranoid.

I really didn't mean to get into this, particularly when B did such a good job of restraining herself, so I'm sorry for that too. It was sort of unnecessary. My apologies for chewing you out so thoroughly.

Edited Date: 2008-01-16 04:34 am (UTC)

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both Bex and I have tried to keep the whole thing very, very quiet

Now I'm confused. You kept it quiet? In what way?

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Me confiding in you and anyone else is not the same as a noisy/public break-up. Although I've talked to you about discomforts and upsets, when have you seen any?

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True - you didn't engage in drama. I read "kept it quiet" as "it wasn't a frequent source/topic of conversation on an ongoing basis from the point of the original incident until the present day." which would be, er, incorrect.

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I think another important point is that only one side of the story is ever heard by any one person, which sort of makes it impossible for shit to be stirred up.

Furthermore, I'm in no control over how much/what is discussed with other people outwith my presence. Apparently.

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Crap, also meant to say, in response to the "no one else took it the way you did" that I have no idea how anyone else took it, you're the only person who said anything to me about it, but if they took it the wrong way I can point them towards my explanation or something, but I'm not *strictly* responsible for how other people choose to interpret it. It was stupid of me, and badly phrased, but I don't control how others read it.

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