Very cool, if true

Nope. On the basis of other times I've heard people talking about it, and things I've read over the past few years.

To be fair, I suspect that it's worse outside of cities and the US has huge swathes of area which fall into that category. Being a goth in NY is probably fairly easy - being so in smalltown Ohio is undoubtably going to be harder.

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pisica.livejournal.com

Definitely. I went to a large high school where I could be a Monty Python and roleplaying geeks, with many others of my kind, without getting hassled by the traditional jocks-and-cheerleaders set. A friend who grew up in small town Texas also managed to find his own people, but had a tougher time with the whole 'being different' thing.

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wolflady26.livejournal.com

I can't imagine going to a job interview, even at a mall, dressed like either of those two. I wouldn't judge them as people based on their looks, but I would judge them as professionals based on whether they could look at least halfway serious about getting a job. I'd also rather someone met my customers with a big smile than with a pout, so judging only by this picture (maybe Goth Girl was really friendly and charming and open in person, I can't tell) I don't think it's really a surprising conclusion.

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Were they going for anything professional I'd agree with you. But for casual shopwork this obviously wasn't the case (as the one in the shorts had no problem).

I was more aghast at the way she was treated openly as she walked down the street...

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wolflady26.livejournal.com

To sell things in stores, I think personality and professionalism are paramount.

Though I admit, if the treatment on the streets is as bad as they say, I would disagree with it. I did my fare share of wandering around in gothy clothes, though, and don't think I terrified any mothers, but I have to admit, it was usually in a more appropriate time and place than local malls.

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There's an appropriate time and place to walk around in your own clothes in a public space?

This concept totally fails to work for me,

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asim.livejournal.com

This concept totally fails to work for me

Myself, as well. Yes, if you're wearing clothing that is meant to provoke, you should expect reactions. I grew up as a Black Man in the Deep South, and I can tell you a great deal about "reactions".
And first and foremost is that sterotyping is no excuse for rudeness. None.

Andrew -- may I repost? And did you notice the last paragraph, where the girls recounted "what they learned from this"?

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Yup. "Don't stand out"

And I agree - walking down the street with a t-shirt that says "Jesus Fucks Babies" is _asking_ for a response, so you shoukd expect one.

But as neither of them were wearing anything like that, the reactions seemed remarkably over the top.

And ofcourse you can repost. I stole it in the first place, and it's from a public news story.

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I can't remember a time when I haven't been out in Stirling, Glasgow or Edinburgh shopping of a weekend and haven't got offensive comments either due to looking vaguely gothy or looking vaguely gay.

Thinking about it carefully, I'd say that it happens at -least- 75% of the occasions that I go out, probably more. It used to be more than that.

If I'm -speaking- out loud in public, then there's the racist (for want of a better word) remarks, but that's to be expected, since that's not seen as racism here.

They've tightened up the dress code where I work from smart casual to "business casual" and put in specific restrictions about clothing types/lengths/styles since people were openly abusing it.

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Thinking about it carefully, I'd say that it happens at -least- 75% of the occasions that I go out, probably more.

Good Lord. I had one comment 10 days ago (in Guildford, someone drunk on a bench with a mate told me to get a haircut), but other than that, and the odd comment from kids in the street outside my flat (about once a month) I haven't had any comments in months.

I'm somewhat amazed.

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you may resemble a terrorist *grin*, but you don't -look- like a goth.

And you often have your nose deep in a book so are somewhat oblivious ;-)

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Oh, I've never really been teased for being a goth. But I have been teased for fairly substantial parts of my life. I'm acutely aware of it when it happens, mostly because it makes me feel sick.

It stopped happening (much) at some point when I was in Stirling. I've never quite managed to pin down when or why.

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neferet.livejournal.com

i've had very little aggro in edinburgh, mostly just confused tourists, but outside of the city it's a totally different kettle of fish. If I went out in Stirling looking even remotely gothy, at some point I will get some kind of hassel. I have had staff refuse to serve me, I have had food thrown at me, been spat at, sworn at, verbally insulted, and had mother haul their children away from me. And sometimes I'm only wearing clothes that I am going ot work in.

I consider it all part and parcel of looking the way I do though, small town narrow-mindedness etc

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pisica.livejournal.com

R gets reasonably frequent comments (usually from drunk guys passing by in cars) to shave his beard or cut his hair when it's gotten particularly shaggy. Also comments about his weight. :(

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lilitufire.livejournal.com

Mind you, I think that might have been more about the amount of flesh on show from some people, rather than excessive gothiness :)

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And, as I put it in our team meeting, "some of the blokes in Customer Services who looked as if they were had just got in from revving their car engines out on the industrial estate...."

But yes, no more crop tops, skirts above mid-thigh and flip flops. It was getting a tad silly at times, in certain parts of the building...

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But I look great in a skirt and flip-flops!

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lilitufire.livejournal.com

I had a meeting with a certain person where it was almost impossible to look at her, rather than her tits, they were so, um, prominently displayed.

It was a bit distracting :)

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I've never had a meeting like that.

No.

Never.

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wolflady26.livejournal.com

Depends what the clothes are. There's an appropriate time and place to dress in skimpy leather, which is what I was thinking of. I think the clothes the girl in the picture was wearing are fine, and probably pretty common, in a place like a mall.

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missedith01.livejournal.com

Is the one on the left supposed to be Goth? Looks pretty Goth-Lite to me! I think she looks smart and well-groomed and totally dressed for shop-work.

The other one I would not employ because I have a deep-seated and irrational prejudice against women who carry those stupid little handbags. ;-)

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lilitufire.livejournal.com

Interesting article.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a retail store to expect its employees to conform to a specific dress code *on the job* if they're customer facing. Expecting that she wouldn't do that and basically cold shouldering her out on the basis of her (assumed) personal style is out of order, however.

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Well, exactly. I wear a tie on the job. But only because they asked me to :->

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I went to a Marilyn Manson concert once a while back, and the security treated us like shit. It was a pretty bizarre experience. I'm a tall white guy who wears polo shirts, that's never happened to me before.

Although, discrimination based on clothing seems somewhat justifiable. You choose your clothing, after all.

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Although, discrimination based on clothing seems somewhat justifiable. You choose your clothing, after all.

Depends on the clothing. Discrimination should only take place based on things that are rationally connected. If people who wore black _were_ far more likely to steal babies and kill old ladies then yes. But being rude to people based on disliking a particular clothing combination seems to me to be the height of bad manners.

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But a lot of people believe that people who wear [insert subcultural clothing style here] -are- more likely to commit crimes or act a certain way. And many of them will be able to provide facts and figures that prove this. So while people are disliking a certain clothing combination, they're doing it based on a rational connection.

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neferet.livejournal.com

Shouldn't that be pseudo-rational connection? I've had people quote to me as many criminals as they could think of that could be considered linked to the 'Goth community', and what I have noted from each conversation is that they conveniently forget about all of the known criminals that happen to come from their cultural group.

I think it all boils down to a simple fear of what they dont understand - and then collecting information to confirm and justify that fear, so they can justify to themselves the behaviour they engage in as a result of that fear.

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True, but what does "rationally connected" mean? Tie dye suggests "hippy". To many, goth clothing suggests "alienated". If the statement is "I'm alienated from society", society might well think "I'm alienated from you."

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My clothing is not a statement. It's stuff I wear that I think looks nice.

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Yeah, I'm mostly making the Devil's Argument. Its stupid to discriminate againist a goth, or whoever. On the other hand, one can always wear something else.

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It's true, one can always wear something else... but I'm honestly more comfortable in a corset than I am in khakis. :)

Deirdra, who is not goth, but has fashion sense.

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Hun, with a face like that you could wear a habit. mmmm hmmmm!

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*blush*

That's a hell of a way to start a stressful work week! Thank you!

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surliminal.livejournal.com

I think that's a very good point. Andy and I were discusing this last night. My latest thoughts on it are (a) as you say , Goth clothing represents to most people a tribe which, right or wrong, looks as if it is emphasising alienation, depression, dissatisfaction. None of these vibes sell clothes (or hamburgers). Also goth clothing is often, for women, anyway, extremely sexualised. (Note Goth Girl above, even tho Goth Lite, is showing her bellybutton through see throuigh black and has emphasised her breasts by wearing see through black over clingy red. And she isn't even wearing a corset :-) Non Goth girl looks healthy and attractive but not sexual, even tho wearing v short skirt- not shorts, Andy.) Work clothing is largely intended to be desexualised. It's like school uniform - coded to make people believe, both workers and curomers, that they're in a work not play environment.

FWIW if I was an employer I wouldn't have hired Goth Girl for anything. No matter what her personal lifestyle choices are, if you come to a job interview dressed like that, it not so subtly says "I don't give a shit about your job, and your corporate needs, I just want to be me." You don't need to wear a suit to interview for McDonalds but neutral clothing - vanilla if you like - is always appropriate. Jeans and a clean t shirt would do. And yes that is the clothing of the dominant tribe not your fill-in-the-gap subculture - live with it. Goth Girl might get a job in advertising maybe, or a bar (a job where unusually sexuality in women is usuall seen as appropriate), dressed like that but not anywhere else..

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wordofblake.livejournal.com

I think "interview" is going a bit far for picking up the application form. Maybe if they had both been invited to the interview and then assessed.

Even then, I think your employer buys your (precious) time. If they want more than that then they should offer more. They don't though. I work in an office where nobody ever sees me, yet I cannot wear shorts in the height of Summer because of their dress code. Andrew wears a tie, how does that help him in his job exactly?

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Looking at the two, I think I'd be put out more by the crotch-skimming skirt than the half-inch of torso. I think the girl in the A&F denim outfit is just as unprofessional as the gothily-dressed chick.

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allorin.livejournal.com

Yeah, OK - but why run an experiment where you already know the result?

In my experience, I've been looked down at when I've been at concerts, or in 'Goth' clubs, because I don't were anything like Goth or metal clothing. But I like the MUSIC at these venues. Similarly, if you dress all in black leather, and have piercing, it doesn't automatically mean you like devil-worshipping music. For me, it's the automatic assumption that the clothes you wear depict your tastes that pisses me off. There's no correlation.

Though I do find it funny, again in my experience, that the 'Goth-type' who is so paranoid about being singled out for the way they look, would generally look down on me when I tell them I'm listening to something like Sisters Of Mercy. Like "Who do you think you are, listening to the Sisters in your Hugo Boss shirt?" Again, not all the time - but it's been a common, and amusing, experience of mine.

To me, most people dress to belong to the particular social group they want to be a part of. Preppies dress to be with other preppies, Goths dress to be with other Goths, and so on. Most people have some kind of 'uniform' - it's the very definition of the word. You won't find many people attending an Oasis concert, or a Britney one, or a Cure one, who aren't in 'uniform'.

Which is why I like to wear jeans/white t-shirt. That hasn't been 'in' since 90210 was on the tee-vee.... ;+)

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Oh, yeah. I can't tell you how many times I've been told (working for ISPs, etc.) that if I could just "grow up" and wear x kind of clothes, stop listening to y kind of music, and didn't insist on dyeing my hair, I could have been promoted.

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Well, if they'd just stop ranking the kind of music you listen to over your abilities then they could have had a kick-ass person doing a great job for them.

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