Relationships
Nov. 18th, 2004 10:32 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
andrewduckerI was talking to Erin a while ago about a small breakthrough she’d had with her therapist. She’d been discussing the fact that she finds it possible to discuss things with me that she has huge problems saying to anyone else – she can tell me about some severe emotional problem she’s had, or some mistake she’s made, or her feelings - she can allow herself not to cope with things around me, while no matter how hard she tries she finds it impossible to do this to the same extent with almost anyone else she knows. She’s been trying very hard not to use me as her first port of call, as she knows how wearying it can be (and wants to cope on her own), but she hadn’t really thought about why _me_ until recently, when she realised that there was something about me that made it possible.
It didn’t come as a huge shock to me to discover that – I’ve known for years that I come across as a good listener – I’d never really worked out why, but people I hardly know have always found it really easy to talk to me. There have been dozens of occasions where people I’ve hardly met have ended up talking to me about all sorts of normally private things until the early hours of the morning. At the same time, I’ve always found it very hard to progress from ‘good listener’ to ‘partner’, something which has puzzled me. Anyway, Erin talked to her therapist about this and they came to the conclusion that the reason I was easy to talk to about emotional problems was because I tend to be emotionally detached (or as Erin sometimes puts it – cold and emotionless (as well as being lovely,caring, warm and kind, of course)).
I largely don’t judge people for their actions, or take them to task for them. I’m interested in what they’ve done and why they’ve done it, on purely empirical, inquisitive grounds, which means I pay a lot of attention and actually _listen_ to them, but I don’t tell them they were idiots for having done it, or that what they’ve done was the wrong thing to do. For instance, Erin finds it hard not to worry about what other people think about her when she confides in them.
Apparently listening to people in a non-judgemental way is a great way to get them to talk to you more, something I hadn’t really picked up on, but seems obvious in retrospect. The fact that I’m impartially interested in pretty much anyone that’s got something to say that I haven’t heard before means that I tend to just come across as, well, interested. The impartial bit, on the other hand, means that people will tend to think that I don’t care about _them_, and am therefore not really partner material.
In retrospect, I think they might be right. While I was certainly interested in all of my previous girlfriends, I’m not entirely convinced that I was interested in the right way – I combined my general interest in sex (largely lacking in discrimination) with the fact thatI liked being around them because I found them ‘fascinating specimens of humanity’, and thus wanted to be with them. But while I developed emotional attachments, I’m not sure that I was actually engaging in the same way that most people do. Certainly I wasn’t paying enough attention to them emotionally – a very common thread in my relationships has been girlfriends complaining that I didn’t appreciate them, that I didn’t pay them enough attention, that I didn’t appreciate them in the right ways, etc. I tend to think of girlfriends as friends++. I do care about them; I just feel that people should be self-sufficient and not need much in the way of reassurance. Apparently that isn’t what most people do. I don’t get jealous; I don’t want to restrict people, I’m generally happy for them to do their own thing. 99% of the time I don’t even miss people when they’re not about. Apparently none of this is ‘normal’.
Which raises the question – how have I managed to get into a relationship 4 times? One answer, I think, is in this detachment. I listen, I’m nice, I want people to be happy, I don’t apply pressure, I’m patient, I’m almost endlessly forgiving. If you’re not used to people actually taking an interest in you, if you’re worried about being judged, if people being nice to you is a novelty then I come across as some kind of huggable therapist – only the kind you can take home. This isn’t to say that that’s the _only_ reason that I’ve ended up in relationships, but it feels like something important I haven’t been noticing before.
Something else, which I’ve noticed more and more is how my tendency towards newness has affected my friendships. A few years after we broke up I remember Marianne (girlfriend number 1) noticing that my interest in Sarah (another female friend and not a girlfriend) was decreasing. She somewhat scathingly asked if I’d become bored of her too. She’d spotted a pattern I hadn’t really – I’d find a new friend, spend vast amounts of time with them while I learnt all the things that this new person could teach me, and then become bored and move onto someone else. I was a serial friender. This didn’t mean I stopped being friends with that person, but it did mean that I spent less time with them as I found someone else different again, who could teach me more about these strange things called ‘people’.
This stemmed from me having pretty much no friends up until second year at university. I had a couple of people I hung out with a bit, but nobody I actually felt close to. People in general baffled me and I didn’t really have much of a connection to them. On first making real friends at university I suddenly entered this new, strange world. In retrospect I then spent about 3-4 years floundering about, getting on ok most of the time, but not having any idea what was actually going on and making the occasional godawful mistakes. I had no idea at all what was and wasn’t reasonable behaviour and it took me that long just to get a basic handle on things. It took me another 5 years or so to really understand what people are like, why they are that way and how to actually understand what they want and how to deal with them. It’s almost all intellectual knowledge to me, requiring quite a lot of work a fair bit of the time, and still leaving me getting told off occasionally for doing the wrong thing by accident (I sometimes do the wrong thing on purpose, but that’s fine :-> ).
Anyway, it took me a long time to get past that stage of new people being a fantastic new toy to poke and prod, and it wasn’t until 2000-odd, when I was getting the hang of things, that I started getting more interested in all my old hobbies again. And even now, when I meet someone who _is_ different and interesting in whole new ways, I tend to focus very intently on them for a while before getting a handle on them and returning to being, y’know, friends with them.
All of which wraps up todays lesson in “This is how Andy is a bit odd when it comes to social relationships.”
It didn’t come as a huge shock to me to discover that – I’ve known for years that I come across as a good listener – I’d never really worked out why, but people I hardly know have always found it really easy to talk to me. There have been dozens of occasions where people I’ve hardly met have ended up talking to me about all sorts of normally private things until the early hours of the morning. At the same time, I’ve always found it very hard to progress from ‘good listener’ to ‘partner’, something which has puzzled me. Anyway, Erin talked to her therapist about this and they came to the conclusion that the reason I was easy to talk to about emotional problems was because I tend to be emotionally detached (or as Erin sometimes puts it – cold and emotionless (as well as being lovely,caring, warm and kind, of course)).
I largely don’t judge people for their actions, or take them to task for them. I’m interested in what they’ve done and why they’ve done it, on purely empirical, inquisitive grounds, which means I pay a lot of attention and actually _listen_ to them, but I don’t tell them they were idiots for having done it, or that what they’ve done was the wrong thing to do. For instance, Erin finds it hard not to worry about what other people think about her when she confides in them.
Apparently listening to people in a non-judgemental way is a great way to get them to talk to you more, something I hadn’t really picked up on, but seems obvious in retrospect. The fact that I’m impartially interested in pretty much anyone that’s got something to say that I haven’t heard before means that I tend to just come across as, well, interested. The impartial bit, on the other hand, means that people will tend to think that I don’t care about _them_, and am therefore not really partner material.
In retrospect, I think they might be right. While I was certainly interested in all of my previous girlfriends, I’m not entirely convinced that I was interested in the right way – I combined my general interest in sex (largely lacking in discrimination) with the fact thatI liked being around them because I found them ‘fascinating specimens of humanity’, and thus wanted to be with them. But while I developed emotional attachments, I’m not sure that I was actually engaging in the same way that most people do. Certainly I wasn’t paying enough attention to them emotionally – a very common thread in my relationships has been girlfriends complaining that I didn’t appreciate them, that I didn’t pay them enough attention, that I didn’t appreciate them in the right ways, etc. I tend to think of girlfriends as friends++. I do care about them; I just feel that people should be self-sufficient and not need much in the way of reassurance. Apparently that isn’t what most people do. I don’t get jealous; I don’t want to restrict people, I’m generally happy for them to do their own thing. 99% of the time I don’t even miss people when they’re not about. Apparently none of this is ‘normal’.
Which raises the question – how have I managed to get into a relationship 4 times? One answer, I think, is in this detachment. I listen, I’m nice, I want people to be happy, I don’t apply pressure, I’m patient, I’m almost endlessly forgiving. If you’re not used to people actually taking an interest in you, if you’re worried about being judged, if people being nice to you is a novelty then I come across as some kind of huggable therapist – only the kind you can take home. This isn’t to say that that’s the _only_ reason that I’ve ended up in relationships, but it feels like something important I haven’t been noticing before.
Something else, which I’ve noticed more and more is how my tendency towards newness has affected my friendships. A few years after we broke up I remember Marianne (girlfriend number 1) noticing that my interest in Sarah (another female friend and not a girlfriend) was decreasing. She somewhat scathingly asked if I’d become bored of her too. She’d spotted a pattern I hadn’t really – I’d find a new friend, spend vast amounts of time with them while I learnt all the things that this new person could teach me, and then become bored and move onto someone else. I was a serial friender. This didn’t mean I stopped being friends with that person, but it did mean that I spent less time with them as I found someone else different again, who could teach me more about these strange things called ‘people’.
This stemmed from me having pretty much no friends up until second year at university. I had a couple of people I hung out with a bit, but nobody I actually felt close to. People in general baffled me and I didn’t really have much of a connection to them. On first making real friends at university I suddenly entered this new, strange world. In retrospect I then spent about 3-4 years floundering about, getting on ok most of the time, but not having any idea what was actually going on and making the occasional godawful mistakes. I had no idea at all what was and wasn’t reasonable behaviour and it took me that long just to get a basic handle on things. It took me another 5 years or so to really understand what people are like, why they are that way and how to actually understand what they want and how to deal with them. It’s almost all intellectual knowledge to me, requiring quite a lot of work a fair bit of the time, and still leaving me getting told off occasionally for doing the wrong thing by accident (I sometimes do the wrong thing on purpose, but that’s fine :-> ).
Anyway, it took me a long time to get past that stage of new people being a fantastic new toy to poke and prod, and it wasn’t until 2000-odd, when I was getting the hang of things, that I started getting more interested in all my old hobbies again. And even now, when I meet someone who _is_ different and interesting in whole new ways, I tend to focus very intently on them for a while before getting a handle on them and returning to being, y’know, friends with them.
All of which wraps up todays lesson in “This is how Andy is a bit odd when it comes to social relationships.”
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no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 03:06 pm (UTC)Er, you mean they're not? :)
Bits of this post sound far too familiar ...
no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 03:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 03:11 pm (UTC)I'm a dork. And proud of it. :-p
no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 03:23 pm (UTC)I'm exactly the same.
I liked being around them because I found them ‘fascinating specimens of humanity’, and thus wanted to be with them. But while I developed emotional attachments, I’m not sure that I was actually engaging in the same way that most people do. Certainly I wasn’t paying enough attention to them emotionally – a very common thread in my relationships has been girlfriends complaining that I didn’t appreciate them, that I didn’t pay them enough attention, that I didn’t appreciate them in the right ways, etc. I tend to think of girlfriends as friends++
Everything you wrote resonates exceptionally well with me, except that I enjoy providing reassurance and doing emotional and practical care-taking (cooking, doing laundry etc...), as long a people don't ask too much (ie, I won't do more for someone than they are willing to do for themselves and if someone looks incapable of taking care of themselves practically or emotionally in any sort of long-term fashion, I rapidly detach them from my life, since I wish to have friends and romantic partners, not emotional or monetary parasites [which is also why I am childfree]).
I’d find a new friend, spend vast amounts of time with them while I learnt all the things that this new person could teach me, and then become bored and move onto someone else. I was a serial friender. This didn’t mean I stopped being friends with that person, but it did mean that I spent less time with them as I found someone else different again, who could teach me more about these strange things called ‘people’.
I'm like this except with my closet friends (Aaron, Dawn, Becca (
This stemmed from me having pretty much no friends up until second year at university. I had a couple of people I hung out with a bit, but nobody I actually felt close to. People in general baffled me and I didn’t really have much of a connection to them. On first making real friends at university I suddenly entered this new, strange world. In retrospect I then spent about 3-4 years floundering about, getting on ok most of the time, but not having any idea what was actually going on and making the occasional godawful mistakes. I had no idea at all what was and wasn’t reasonable behaviour and it took me that long just to get a basic handle on things.
The degree to which this described my life is rather uncanny.
I'm fascinated by the similarities and the (seemingly fairly minor) differences that I see between us wrt friendships and romance.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 12:02 am (UTC)Lilian told me about a friend in Australia who said that their ideal relationship was nurse/patient, because he couldn't really relate outside of that. That would drive me insane, but I can understand the attraction - you're always needed and you have a nice simple system to follow.
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Date: 2004-11-19 02:31 am (UTC)*nods* dear gods, that sounds shockingly like the way I think.
Most people don't think this way? How do they think? I know that most people do not get as much pleasure doing small useful tasks for their loved ones as I do, but beyond that I'm uncertain how most people are different from the way that I am.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 03:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 03:40 pm (UTC)Erin here
Date: 2004-11-18 03:48 pm (UTC)Re: Erin here
Date: 2004-11-18 04:33 pm (UTC)Re: Erin here
Date: 2004-11-19 01:22 am (UTC)Re: Erin here
Date: 2004-11-19 12:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 05:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 02:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 03:18 am (UTC)I wasn't sure if this meant the fruit or the social practice, but then I realised I felt the same way about both. So that's OK.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 04:21 am (UTC)Scored 22 overall, which is lower than I was expecting.
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Date: 2004-11-19 06:13 am (UTC)D'oh. Yes, that's probably what it meant. Mark me down as 'Unable to understand question due to excessive ambiguity of language used'.
On the up side, I now know that on my sliding scale of agreement/disagreement dates the fruit, dates the social practice and dates of the historical type all rate exactly the same.
Scored 22 overall, which is lower than I was expecting.
I scored 19, which I think means I'm almost normal. ;)
no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 03:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 04:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 11:59 pm (UTC)I offer as an example, a young lady who went to a fancy-dress party dressed as Oscar Wilde...
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Date: 2004-11-19 04:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 04:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 04:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 11:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 04:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 11:53 pm (UTC)In my case, I've taken the isolationist/loner route... a few individuals I'd call friends (closer to friend than aquaintance). I haven't had a "best" friend--someone I was really close to--since I was 12.
I suppose an advantage of this outlook on life is to be generally immune to codependency; not necessarily a bad thing.
In all honesty, I believe that I am the way I am, and I just completely fail to have any motivation to become more "normal", more social, more... I don't know what you'd call it! More human? Tribal? Communal? What's the big deal, anyway? If I can live without it, then that's all that matters.
(To add to the statistical sample being accumulated in replies to your post: I got 27 on the Asperger's Syndrome test that
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Date: 2004-11-19 01:25 am (UTC)Certainly I wasn’t paying enough attention to them emotionally – a very common thread in my relationships has been girlfriends complaining that I didn’t appreciate them, that I didn’t pay them enough attention, that I didn’t appreciate them in the right ways, etc.
This is something you actually have in common with almost every other man in the entire world, in fact.
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Date: 2004-11-19 04:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 02:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 04:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 12:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 04:53 am (UTC)Apparently that isn’t what most people do. I don’t get jealous; I don’t want to restrict people, I’m generally happy for them to do their own thing. 99% of the time I don’t even miss people when they’re not about. Apparently none of this is ‘normal’.
Now you and me know that whereas you have all these Asperger type responses I have none of em. I like people, I respond emotionally as appropriate, I'm an extrovert, and altho I like a fair bit of down time I'm probably at my happiest when interacting with people. So this shouldn't be true of me right?
But it is. To get away from u n me, that was exactly how I felt in most my past relationships, inc my near "marriage" to Tommy. It was me who liked being with someone, loved them even, but was happy to be independent, go away weekends and holidays and sabbaticals on own, have them do the same. I was never jealous of someone for having sex per se with someone else; though I am very distressed if what this means is what I feel as a loss or dilution of commitment. And as you know it has tended to be far more you than me who has instigated the kind-of "monitoring contact" you find natural - daily emails, txts, calls etc (tho you have trained me up on this rather!)
I don't know what point I'm making here except that this rather fashionable tendency to go "fans/geeks etc are Aspergers like = clever but can't be expected to behave like human being, be polite, observe social cues, wear deodorant etc etc" is a rather blunt descriptive instrument - not dimensional enough (as I said about the "better than sex" poll.) I am very very normal in some ways, but in others maybe stranger than you. And vice versa for you. I suppose I'm wary of labelling which seems almost pre packaged to give people an out from the daily, not easy, task of being a decent human being. (NB I am not saying you are not the latter - you are in spades :-)
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Date: 2004-11-19 12:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 07:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-19 12:53 pm (UTC)