Rape

[andrewducker]

Chatted with Ed until 1am last night, covering a variety of subjects, including this one and one which will apear shortly in a journal entry of its own.  And those of you who are going to be offended by the following discussion will by now hopefully have now passed on to a different entry.

We ended up talking about the fact that many people consider rape to be worse than murder (Ed being one of those people), Ed's reasoning being that murder (generally) consists of a few moments of suffering for the person being murdered, whereas rape leaves scars that can last a lifetime.

I disagreed, saying that "Rape is worse than murder" indicated that it was better to be murdered than raped, effectively saying to rape victims "It would be better for you if you were dead." and denigrating those women who do get over rape and have happy lives.  Also, being a materialistic type, I view death as the end, so by killing someone you've just taken away from them whatever future they had, generally a far worse thing to do than making their life worse.

The difference seemed to boil down to whether you looked at the future of the victim and took into account just the bad effects of the crime or the totality of their lives.

The first account for a short period of pain for a murder victim, longer pain for a rape victim in addition to depression and trauma lasting (possibly) for many years.  The second means comparing a short period of pain _and then nothing else_ with the possibility of many years of life, large amounts of which may be happy, leading to a life which is, on balance, a happy one.

There are a few things that I'd rather be dead than endure (constant crippling pain, brain diseases that leave me unable to function in any meaningful sense), but by and large I'd rather be able to try and make my way somewhat happily in life, even if that means living through some terrible things along the way.

[Poll #255466]

Comments

[trashcanglam.livejournal.com]

It really must be a laugh riot round at your place ;-)

[andrewducker]

Oh yeah, we have all the fun conversations :->

[nickys.livejournal.com]

Well, it took me nearly a decade after being raped to be able to accept that men were people too and not, as I had thought, huge, stinking, scary animals.

And now, 27 years on, I still have a few slight problems/issues, but, as you say, I have got over it to all practical purposes. I have a life which I enjoy and I have a future ahead of me in which the whole thing is just a minor stain, not a massively disabling catastrophe.

[cruft.livejournal.com]

Ooh, good topic.

I'm inclined not to want to say categorically that rape is worse than or better than murder, since I think it's just as unfair to say to a rape victim "Could be worse, you could be dead" as it is to say "You're better off dead," since s/he might feel that being dead *would* be better, or not.

Perhaps this is my pathological fear of generalizations emerging, but I'd rather deal with the question on a case-by-case basis, and only presume to speak for myself. Sure, I'd rather be raped than dead, but I've never been either, so it's hard to say, and I doubt I could predict what someone else would think about that.

[terminalmalaise.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, by posing both questions, you anticipated what was going through my mind as I read the post. I completely agree that being murdered is worse, but like a few other people I voted that rape is worse to commit. At first, that visceral response seemed illogical even to me, but what it comes down to is that I can't come up with any scenario in which I'd be in any way sympathetic to a rapist.

Murder is a fairly broad category and I can think of some situations in which a part of me might approve of it--generally if it's some form of vengeance for a real wrong previously committed against the murderer by the victim.

I can't imagine a comparable situation involving rape. The closest I can come is to be utterly unsympathetic to the victim if we're talking about the prison rape of a convicted child molester.

[andrewducker]

I agree with you. Premeditated, first degree murder with no justification is worse than rape (IMHO), manslaughter definitely isn't. And there's one of those big grey areas in between.

[drainboy.livejournal.com]

That was my feeling too. There are many justifications for murder and I'd like to say none for rape. However, reading your comments:

"I can think of some situations in which a part of me might approve of it--generally if it's some form of vengeance for a real wrong previously committed against the murderer by the victim"

Would you say that non-deadly violence could also be approved of as vengeance? Would you say that rape _could_ also be approved of as vengeance?

What if a man raped you or a loved one? What if your vengeance was an eye for an eye?

This makes sense given that a lot of the reasons behind rape are as much about power as they are about some evolutionary mechanism for procreation. For example: male rapes in prison by normally heterosexual inmates.

[terminalmalaise.livejournal.com]

Would you say that non-deadly violence could also be approved of as vengeance?

Yes, but...

Would you say that rape _could_ also be approved of as vengeance?

...the thing about rape is that it's intrinsically twisted and sadistic. It may be about power, but the rapist is getting off on it. Even if it were for vengeance, the nature of the act pushes it out of any grey area. Same would go for a murderer who tortured their victim before killing, whatever their motivation.

[drainboy.livejournal.com]

I find it hard to think of vengeance without thinking of deliberate brutality. If you executed a rapist (within or without a court system), calmly and rationally to ensure they never raped again, I don't see that as vengeance, but as justice. If you made them beg for their life then it would be vengeance. Perhaps we're talking at cross terminology here. What do you define as vengeance?

[terminalmalaise.livejournal.com]

Intellectually I support the rule of law, so while emotionally I may approve of vigilantism, it is vengeance, not justice in most cases, IMO. Where it gets sticky is in the real world when judicial systems have already failed.

[wolflady26.livejournal.com]

I'm actually a little appalled to find out that some people believe that it is a close call. (Not because they are necessarily wrong, but because it is so alien to my perspective).

Rape leaves scars, but so do many other terrible things, from physical (non-sexual) abuse to losing a loved one to a horrible disease or suicide or murder, or, well, an awful lot of other things.

But murder takes away the chance to recover and heal. Murder rips apart families. Murder robs us of time, which is one of our most valuable possessions.

I can imagine that many rape victims feel that they would rather have been murdered for a variable amount of time. But I believe that most eventually also start to appreciate life again, to find things to enjoy. And I believe that some rape victims do not feel the wish to die. (I don't believe that everyone responds to this trauma in the same way).

Given the choice: "I'm going to torture you for an hour then kill you, or rape you for an hour then let you go, you decide" I don't believe most people would take death.

[troworld.livejournal.com]

*applauds*

[luxcanon.livejournal.com]

1. I'd rather survive rape to take my revenge.

2. I can think of plenty of reasons for justified murder (such as, for example, removing a known rapist from the community) but none for justified rape.

Not an Endorsement, just a musing

[luxcanon.livejournal.com]

I've seen it suggested before that from the perspective of regarding human history as the evolution of civilization, rape has been an important factor.

"Rome was built on the rape of the Sabine women," for example.

I do not identify with any particular cultural or racial supremacy, nor do I believe that there is any one subset of humanity that is 'better' in general, but regardless of what I think is Right or Wrong, clearly there is evidence to suggest that many cultures got how they are because they sent a bunch of pillagers over to the next island and spread their seed by force, or, were sitting about minding their own business when some other conquering culture invaded for the same purpose. This is not justificationism, just making a point.

[darkoshi]

I used to think that rape was worse than, or at least as bad as, murder. But that was because I found sex to be such a disgusting thing... and the idea of it being forced on me was utterly repugnant. I felt that rapists should be given the death penalty, or life in prison.

But now that I no longer think of sex as such a horrible thing, and it even seems like something that could be enjoyable, rape doesn't seem as horrible either. Now, it would just be a very unpleasant experience from which I would recover. Now, I can understand why murderers would get worse judicial punishment than rapists.

[kimberly-a.livejournal.com]

I'm not ranting at you personally (particularly since you seem to agree with me), but I find this question horribly offensive. Do you have any idea how many women each year fight DESPERATELY for their lives while they are being raped?

My mother was brutally raped (within my hearing) when I was 6 years old, and I can state with informed certainty that she would NOT have preferred to die. She had two small children to protect, but even aside from that, she still had a life to lead. She has travelled, grown, contributed a great deal to the world through her volunteer work, and laughed a great many times in the 27 years since the day when she was raped.

For ANYONE, particularly a MAN, to even IMPLY that my mother (and others like her) would have been better off dead rather than living with the aftermath of such an attack makes me honestly sick to my stomach.

[dapperscavenger.livejournal.com]

Well, I have no idea what it is like to be murdered. I suppose if I believed in a wondous afterlife filled with fluffy bunnies and happiness, then... DUH.. of course I'd rather be murdered.

But I don't know. So I'll opt for niether, thanks.

[aberbotimue.livejournal.com]

You have asked this question before..

yoiur like a fassion coming round again..