andrewducker: (Default)
[personal profile] andrewducker

Date: 2018-01-10 10:14 am (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
I think our disagreement here is about whether the past or the future is the most relevant. Are people allowed to change sides?

I don't disagree with you that she is fully behind her espoused policy of leaving the EU in accordance with the expressed will of the British people.

It is unclear what her position would be if the opinion polls were running 60% for Remain.

As always I suspect that a Tory hasn't changed their mind on something important so much as they have realised that saying and doing something different leaves the Tory Party in power.

I don't think she enjoys the full trust and confidence of the pre-referendum Brexiteers because of her prior position. They suspect she is either a fair weather friend or working to bring down Brexit from within.

Perhaps more importantly if we move to a position where people are allowed to shift from being Remainers to Brexiteers then we are accepting that Britain will be leaving the EU and not re-joining. If one wants Britain to rejoin the EU then Remainers must be prepared to carry a grudge about it for decades to come.

Date: 2018-01-10 10:16 am (UTC)
mountainkiss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mountainkiss

I don't think we get to choose on Theresa May's part whether she is to carry a grudge about it for decades. She is fully committed to carrying out what she regards as the democratic result of the referendum.

Date: 2018-01-10 10:22 am (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
No we don't get to directly chosse what she thinks and what she wants to do.

But we get to decide how we label that. Pragmatic democrat or traitor. A bad Remainer or a New Brexiteer. Honourable or wretched. Right or wrong.

And through that label influence others.

Date: 2018-01-10 10:23 am (UTC)
mountainkiss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mountainkiss

We do, but any label implying that there is any meaning now for her in her previous conviction is inaccurate.

Date: 2018-01-10 10:26 am (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
The label has consequences for her, even if she wants to move beyond it.

Part of her current advantage is that she is sufficiently in both camps to survive. Part of her problem is that her room for manouvre is limited because she is not fully trusted by either side.

And this sort of grudge keeping is exactly what I was talking about on Sunday.

Date: 2018-01-10 10:30 am (UTC)
mountainkiss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mountainkiss

In my view the negative consequences of the inaccuracy of the label when applied to her, with its consequent dilutions of both the integrity of the labeller and the meaning of the label, outweigh any positive consequences in this context.

Date: 2018-01-10 10:31 am (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
I would expect you to take such an open and honest approach.

It is good that at least one of us is not being corrupted by Brexit.

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