A clash of wits

[andrewducker]

Thrust


Riposte


(The latter was my thought when I saw the original image, but I wouldn't have been able to illustrate it so well.)

Comments

[davegodfrey]

I'm tempted to mash the worst of both of them with the caption "sort it out the pair of you".

[azurelunatic]

... is that Kari Byron against the green background?

[andrewhickey.info]

Yes. She did a shoot for a lad mag, and they used that shoot as the basis for an episode of Mythbusters.

And I tend to agree with the second image, sadly.

[thejeopardymaze]

So true.

[spacelem.livejournal.com]

I've already commented on this on Cyndi's facebook, but essentially, I don't think the riposte is as clever as it wants to be. It's very easy to find drek in any subject, and I don't think many of the second set are held as role models. The only thing I've only seen the catwoman picture in is complaints, and Daenerys was only naked twice, once as an object (definitely not a role model at that point), and once having just walked out of an inferno unscathed. I don't know the other characters.

On the flipside, Natalie Portman is hardly alien to geek culture, and I don't think I recognise many of the others (in either set). Given the relative popularity of all the characters involved, I think the second set is far more guilty of cherry picking than the first.

All in all, yay for the first picture.

[andrewducker]

I don't think that many of the top row of the Pop Culture ones are held as role models either. That's part of the problem - they picked a bunch of scantily clad people from pop culture and compared them to the covered up ones from geek culture, and then people were displaying it as if that said something about the difference between the two cultures.

The geek ones in the bottom pic are as much role models as the pop culture ones in the top pic are - which was the point, and why the bottom tag is "Cherry picking data is intellectually dishonest".

[kiffkin.livejournal.com]

It's a shame the maker of the second image decided to include Bayonetta on there (fourth from the left). She's a fantastic role model and the eponymous game has a strong message of don't be ashamed to be yourself, and women are not to be punished for making their own decisions about their bodies. By including her it either means the creator's slut shaming or they couldn't be bothered to find out anything about the character and OMG ASS LOL!!. It's a shame, as it undermines the very good point they're trying to get across.

[kiffkin.livejournal.com]

Actually, both images reek of _effort_, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised :(

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

What is the source for the second one?

[andrewducker]

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1420504591517.2059696.1199732017&type=3
seems to be the originating point.

[lpetrazickis.livejournal.com]

The first image elicited a similar anti-cherrypicking reaction in me.

Also, the self-satisfied gloating that it represents is generally not a productive activity.

[khbrown.livejournal.com]

Geek culture should have images of the likes of Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper and Marie Curie.

[andrewducker]

Damn straight!

[teaotter.livejournal.com]

I think both images are largely slut-shaming, since the only commonality in all of the "bad" images is that the women are wearing skimpy/sexy outfits.

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

YES!!!!!

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Of course, in both sets, the women are relatively young and thin...

[andrewducker]

Yup. And as others have pointed out, in both cases lots of skin is considered bad.

[fearmeforiampink]

A friend of mine came up with this image (not 100% sure that link will work) as his own riposte to the original.

[fearmeforiampink]

Aye; the same point of 'don't be ashamed to be yourself' and suchlike could easily be applied to Lady Gaga, and whilst I can't remember who she is, I remember someone advancing similar arguments about the one just before her, with the red/pink wallpaper behind.

[luckylove.livejournal.com]

Given that I can identify all of the geek role models in the top picture but none in the second one and the only pop culture ones I know are that Twilight lass and Nicole Kidman (but I'm not 100% certain that's her) neither of them work for me.

I am confused as to why Sam Carter is standing in front of an Pegasus system gate and not one of the Earth gates.

Edited to use correct duct tape userpic.

[kurosau.livejournal.com]

I would disagree. In the first image everyone shown is a role model in that they are characters of celebrity, whether fictional or real, that people could choose to embrace as an example of what they want to be. It's cherry picking because they picked bad ones for the pop culture example and good ones for the geek culture example.

By comparison, the second image lists five good pop culture role models. It then lists two role models from geek culture, Catwoman and Kari Byron. The image of Kari Byron is from one of the only photo series I can think of where she was dressed up as a male sex fantasy, which pretty much only leaves Catwoman, who as a comic book character is a pretty sore excuse for a role model. Bayonetta and Red Sonja are both sex fantasy characters and Daenerys isn't automatically a crap role model because she's naked.

[kerrypolka.livejournal.com]

I agree - the other issue I have with the first image is that the women in the top row are all real people, and those in the bottom row are fictional. It's not the intention, of course, but it does come across a bit as "Girls, slut-shame real people and hold yourself to impossible fictional standards, many (all?) of whom were created by men!"

[andrewducker]

That's awesome!

[coalescent.livejournal.com]

There's another geek culture rebuttal image in this post which I find more effective because I recognise more of its examples.

[andrewducker]

That's a good post!

[coalescent.livejournal.com]

My other problem with the initial rebuttal is that it pulls in media personalities and sports starts to go up against fictional characters.

Suggested alternate lineup: Veronica Mars, Kima Greggs, Kalinda Sharma, CJ Cregg, M (Judi Dench version).

[innerbrat]

This is the first I even heard of it:

[innerbrat]

Just about to read the post, but my real problem with that image is the implication that Power Girl and Princess Leia are not good role models simply because of how they dress / look.

[innerbrat]

Genuine question - Can you really not recognise Catwoman, or is that picture of her just that bad? (She's the one on the far left of the second Geek Culture.)

[luckylove.livejournal.com]

I just saw goggles and an arse and a figure that was so contorted that its spine must surely be broken. Looking closer I see the ears and the fact that part of the name is at the top of the pic. All the ones in the geek part of the top picture I recognised instantly so I didn't spend much longer looking at the bottom ones. I probably would have identified catwoman because of the text at the top but not immediately from the picture. I've read any catwoman comics and I don't think I saw the movie which, from what other people have told me, was completely shit. I honestly do not know who any of the others in the bottom geek picture are. I'm fairly certain I've seen the one in the middle in various LJ userpics but I don't know who she is.

[innerbrat]

Thank you!

(It was a genuine question - that picture is recent, and already notorious as a terrible piece of art of a popular character form a skilled artist. So it's well ingrained into my consciousness as a comics fan. I wanted to know how unrecognisable it was to someone not as deep into comics fandom as me. So thanks!)

(I think the middle one is a Queen from Game of Thrones.)

[luckylove.livejournal.com]

My boyfriend is a comics fan but he prefers what he calls more offbeat comics rather than things like that badly drawn catgirl. He's into 100 Bullets, Hotwire, BPRD, DMZ, Transmetropolitan, Hellboy stuff, early Frank Miller stuff (before he turned into a misogynist arsehole - my boyfriends words - I haven't read any of it), Driver for the Dead, Witchfinder, Queen and Country, Legends - The Enchanted, Aladdin (Radical Publishing one), Lost Girls.
His guilty pleasure is Nikoli Dante which does become less juvenile as it goes on although some would say that's hardly difficult.
I have read the first Nikoli Dante TPB and thought it was fun but comics confuse me especially if one frame bleeds into the next as I end up reading that and getting completely confused and I've hijacked Andrew's thread with nonsense about graphic novels.

[andrewducker]

Not at all. People talking about what they do and don't like is absolutely on-topic in all posts, so long as it's done reasonably politely, which you are miles inside the borders of.

[innerbrat]

Oh my gosh, Queen and Country is the greatest thing ever! Give it a go if you're inclined. Or pick up the novels, which are just as brilliant.

[andrewducker]

That one is also awesome. And I definitely agree on having real life people as role models.

[apostle-of-eris.livejournal.com]

mine does!

[coalescent.livejournal.com]

I don't know about Power Girl, but there are certainly reasons to be dubious of Leia as a role model beyond the slave girl costume, and to the extent that she is a good role model, the fetishisation of that costume by geek culture is certainly reason to be dubious that she is actually seen as a role model.

[theweaselking.livejournal.com]

What kind of "Geeky Female Role Models" picture has neither Sarah Connor nor Ellen Ripley?