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timeasmymeasure
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Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 12:33 pm (UTC)However, perhaps it's to do with how much a person first and foremost identifies with being clever/intellectual above what they do with it.
The unhappy intelligent people I know are mostly there because they've used their intellect to talk themselves into foolish things or out of good things; or because they've focussed their intellect inwards and never come out.
They see themselves as being analytical, cynical or introspective, but increasingly I see a cleverly constructed smokescreen to justify being risk averse and/or lazy.
The unmotivated or understretched aren't going to be cured by talking about how unmotivated or understretched they are. They need to pull their fingers out, try out new long term goals, or get a change of scene.
For example:
"I have been depressed for months, and do not know what to do with myself, what should I do?"
A few years ago I'd have said, "Do you want to talk about it?"
Nowadays, I'd select from the following: "Get off the damned PC and get more fresh air and exercise. Try some new hobbies. Take a break and do something different for a few weeks. Consider different careers or a new job. Read something different. Listen to different music. Go to some gigs. Revisit old hobbies. Stand up to your partner or parents. Dump the toxic friendships. Get out of the rut. Stop wallowing. Move on. Take responsibility for your self and your happiness."
Does that make me a better or a worse friend?
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 12:37 pm (UTC)Does you method tend to work well? If so, then that's great! Personally, I needed to be persuaded into it, intellectually, with graphs. Just telling me to go out and do exercise, if anything, pushed me away from doing it.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 01:28 pm (UTC)Does it work on me? Yes. Taking a break to swing a sword in the back garden helps.
Telling you to go out and exercise is pointless. How about saying, "Hey, let's go for a walk between two castles?" or "Would you like to take up a martial art?"
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 01:32 pm (UTC)Numerous people told me to leave a toxic relationship, but it took time in counselling for me to work out that it _was_ toxic, what I was doing to enable it, and how I should be reacting to it. Without that talking it through I wouldn't have changed my whole approach to relationships.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 12:39 pm (UTC)Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 01:31 pm (UTC)If it can be escaped by changing job or role in some way, then the person is balking escaping, and it is also laziness, albiet possibly emotional laziness.
So, to me, what you describe is *how* laziness works. Being able to describe how the car works doesn't make it not a car...
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 01:36 pm (UTC)Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 01:55 pm (UTC)The meaning as in "Too lazy to get out of bed on a Saturday morning" really refers to a question of priorities; perhaps lying in bed is more fun than shaving, or resting more important than non vital tasks.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 01:59 pm (UTC)That's if you're defining "needs doing" as things like "paying the bills" and "buying food" of course. The people that can't do that usually have major problems.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 02:09 pm (UTC)However, whatever help they're getting, whatever approach they're taking, doesn't appear to be helping very much.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 03:00 pm (UTC)The people _not_ in that situation seem to get all the stuff that needs to be done (i.e. buying food, going to work, paying bills). And therefore, by your definition, aren't lazy :->
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 03:13 pm (UTC)Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 03:18 pm (UTC)"What does lazy mean?" "That they haven't done it."
It's no an answer, it's a way of not answering. If you want to fix something you need to understand why it's broken. So far, I don't see how the word "lazy" is contributing to that, or imparting any meaning at all.
What does it say about someone that they are lazy? What _is_ laziness? So far, it sounds like you're saying that laziness=depression.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 03:30 pm (UTC)"can't be arsed"----------"can't carry on"
Depression/laziness probably evolved to stop us wasting time on things with no return.
As for fixing it - in most cases, I think it's down to bootstraps: "Just do it."
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 03:43 pm (UTC)Depression* usually comes from a feeling of being trapped, and of rage/frustration turned inwards. If the people thought that they could just do it then, by definition, they wouldn't be depressed. It does, indeed, seem to be the point at which our brain has told us that there is no point, because nothing good will come of it. They have no bootstraps, and something in the dark has eaten their boots.
*I'm not talking about the kind that comes from having brain chemistry that's fucked. Completely different kettle of fish.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 04:06 pm (UTC)I didn't pull myself up by my bootstraps in some instant heroic way. However, in each case the resolution of the depression involved trudging towards resolving the practical situation... in deciding to keep going. I didn't fight depression, I fought the things that made me depressed.
We get to where we're going through a series of decisions. Ultimately we're responsible - in the practical sense - for ourselves. If you're stuck in the dark, you're the only person that can grope for the lightswitch.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 04:08 pm (UTC)Having been helped myself, and having helped others, I don't believe that for an instant.
Edit: I am glad that you could dig yourself out of your depression. But that means that either your hormones were receding/your body was adjusting to them, or that your depression was less bad than the people that haven't been able to dig themselves out. If their depression was the same as yours, after all, they too would have dug themselves out of it.
I've pulled myself out of some stuff, and had to be helped out of other stuff. Sometimes the difference was my ability to work my way out of things (which has improved as I've understood myself better), sometimes it's been because the problem was better/worse than at others, other times the quality of the help. The idea that one answer fits everyone seems odd to me, and not to fit the variability of reality.
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Date: 2011-08-23 03:51 pm (UTC)Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 04:37 pm (UTC)"Melancholia" that's the word I wanted.
Laziness and depression exist on the spectrum of "melancholia".
Yes, some laziness is actually just about priorities and therefore is in the eye of the beholder.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-23 11:32 pm (UTC)nothing is inescapable. death is always an option.
(which is partly why i don't do anything, because i operate on the fallacy that i'll kill myself $tomorrow so there's no point. :>)
...
well, i know it's a fallacy enough to keep going to work and do a few other basic maintenance tasks to stop things getting worse, at least.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-24 08:03 am (UTC)What one change would get you out of it?
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-24 11:34 am (UTC)afaict i'm stuck in a whole bunch of interlocking and circular dependencies and vicious circles, and improving seems to require tackling all of them simultaneously and incrementally.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-24 11:46 am (UTC)In the mean time, are you getting fresh air and exercise?
Are there any changes that would improve your practical circumstances?
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-24 05:24 pm (UTC)i need to do more exercise anyway because i'm overweight, but that gets into being-around-people issues, or for exercising at home what i would define as laziness: "i can't be bothered" when i know there's a positive result and no downsides or unfulfilled prerequisites.
lately i'm trying to get more sleep, as i often don't, and it has proven-to-me mood and physical benefits (which should help with tackling other things) and i know i'm capable of it.
i'd probably benefit from getting therapy, and going to the doctor for various physical niggles/concerns, but i'm currently avoiding arranging those for various reasons.
i'm also going on an abroad holiday for the first time in a decade next month, which will hopefully remind me nice things exist and serve as an up-to-date example to myself of what i can cope with.
Re: Stiff upper lip after all?
Date: 2011-08-24 05:56 pm (UTC)Of course, you'd improve massively if you took up German Longsword.... :)