Date: 2010-07-19 11:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cairmen.livejournal.com
I'm not entirely sure if the fuss about the "torture guide" is justified. They all sound like self-defence and restraint techniques to me. And for all the hand-wringing about 12-year-olds, if I had, say, two full-grown seventeen-year-olds with violent backgrounds and lots of experience fighting (not a huge stretch from "young offender") trying to kick my face in, I'd say using most of those techniques would be justified.

Of course, if they've been abused, that's a very, very serious issue. But the piece didn't seem to offer evidence they had been.

(Also - if you're in a brawl, you may end up with the other guy in a headlock. It's probably a good thing if your self-defence manual has pointed out that you need to watch out for impeding their windpipe.)

Date: 2010-07-19 11:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cairmen.livejournal.com
Argh, don't appear to be able to edit. For clarity, in para 2 I meant "If these techniques have been abused"

Date: 2010-07-19 12:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cairmen.livejournal.com
Fair point, but those are cherry-picked quotes not an overall poll. I've never heard of Mr Stevens, so have no idea how reliable he is, and the other speaker isn't even identified.

I don't really know what the atmosphere is like in these institutions - maybe serious violence almost never happens. I also don't know how these techniques compare against those used in adult prisons. However, I don't see why, on a practical level, defending yourself against or restraining a 17-year-old would be so different to doing the same against a 19-year-old.

(I'm going to ask a friend who has a lot more practical knowledge of these matters to comment.)

Date: 2010-07-19 12:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cairmen.livejournal.com
b), it must be said, does not send a good message.

(Conversely, the incredibly juicy subject matter - the government! hurts! children! makes me a little skeptical quite how much steak there is behind the sizzle. The journalists involved have a much, much stronger incentive to find that there are horrible dark secrets in the document than they do to conclude it's basically OK.)

Date: 2010-07-19 12:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com
The fact of deaths strongly suggests abuse.

I'm looking forward (in a sense) to accounts from ex-inmates.

Date: 2010-07-19 03:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cairmen.livejournal.com
Response from my friend (who has experience working with potentially violent youths as well as various jobs requiring restraint and self-defence techniques):

"If used in a true self defence context- ie with force proportionate to the attack - these are appropriate techniques. If you're being pinned or held then you need to use pain based attacks to get released- simple.

If used incorrectly or out of appropriate context then it is abuse. Just as if someone went for a copper with a knife he can use his baton(which will hurt and may lead to possibility of death even if used in the manner trained to be less than lethal), but if the copper just hits a person because he feels like it, or they simply moved too fast for his liking, it then it is wrong."

He goes on to say that these techniques are listed as being adapted from adult prison restraint techniques (""General service techniques") and says "bear in mind that in adult settings they use batons, body arnour and shields too so this is a medium suitable to the setting. An aggrieved 17 year old is no differnt from an aggrieved 30 year old. I've been belted on the chin at work by a 14 year old and it was no differnt from being belted on the chin by a fully grown adult."

Of course, the sticking point is that these will be used on children, and interestingly he also says that a lot of bouncers refuse to work under-18 clubs, because "It gets trickier when they are 12 as they can do as much damage to you as you can do to them; but when it goes wrong it goes really wrong. This is why lot of doorstaff refuse to do under-18 nightclubs as the risk of being charged by people who don't understand this is far too great."

Date: 2010-07-19 03:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cairmen.livejournal.com
Ahem, apologies for the typo there, my copy/paste fu is not mighty today.

Date: 2010-07-19 11:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] supergee.livejournal.com
Over here, Borders has separate-but-equal shelf space for GLBT and black writing. Remember when we wanted sf out of the ghetto?

Date: 2010-07-19 12:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] broin.livejournal.com
"Drive straight fingers into the young person's face, and then quickly drive the straightened fingers of the same hand downwards into the young person's groin area."

Dating was really different in my day.

Date: 2010-07-19 12:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pseudomonas.livejournal.com
When I needed a flu jab last autumn, I had pretty much no choice of time/date to get it at my GP's. I was quite tempted to skip having the jab rather than waste a morning when I wanted to be elsewhere. One could easily imagine patches being sent through the post and people being asked to phone- or web-confirm when they've applied it, with medical staff calling people who've not bothered or who've had problems.

Date: 2010-07-19 12:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ninebelow.livejournal.com
I can't read the Erotic review link at work because everything to do with sex is obviously wrong and must be blocked. However, since when is Winterson filed under LGBT rather than Fiction? Not in any bookshop I've been into.

Presumably the wider point is that LGBT (and Black) sections of the bookshop are ghettoising and I agree with this. I do wonder if the books they contain would be stocked with out them though.

Date: 2010-07-19 01:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] momentsmusicaux.livejournal.com
Oh that Gillian McKeith. She just won't learn.

The playground thing -- is it really a gender thing, or is it just rough kids vs quiet kids? Of course, it's a gender thing that more of the rough kids are boys. But their actual behaviour in their roughness I mean.

Date: 2010-07-19 04:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] phillipalden.livejournal.com
That article about torturing children in custody is appalling!

I just read a similar article about how gay and trans-gendered kids are abused by the system.

It's not wonder they come out more fucked up than when they went in.

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