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andrewduckerI will get this wrong.
I know I will.
And to be honest, it scares the hell out of me.
But I've pretty much persuaded myself that to not talk about this is wrong. That putting my fingers in my ears and pretending it's not happening is not a reasonable response. That I can't just back quietly away and ignore it.
I'm lucky. I get to make that choice. I _have_ the privilege to ignore it, because I'm not personally affected by it. As privilege's go it's pretty small-fry. I mean, I'm also lucky enough not to be living in a country where religion and law are the same thing, to not be part of a gender that frequently has to choose between children and workplace success, to not be living in a region where education is nigh-unknown and the only way to earn a living is to recycle the waste of richer countries.
I have a lot of privilege, and I manage to avoid talking, or even thinking, about most of it, most of the time. This one's only getting talked about because it's a topic of conversation "close" to me, insofar as it keeps popping up on my friends list, and a bunch of people took the time and effort to try and educate me over the last 48 hours, so I feel owe them trying to explain some of what I've learned.
I will get this wrong. I know I will. But I feel I have to _try_. And then, when people have pointed out where I've gone wrong, try again. And keep trying.
Anyway.
Waaaaaay back at the dawn of time (start of January, you can find links by clicking on "earlier" three or four times in this list) there were a couple of posts about Writing The Other. The exact contents of those posts aren't actually that important, in the grand scheme of things*. What was important* was that they kicked off a big discussion about People Of Colour (POC) and the role they play in SF.
And that kicked off a big discussion about the role that POC play in the SF industry.
And that kicked off a big discussion about the role that POC play in SF fandom.
(Those two might have happened the other way round - there's been a lot of parallell discussion going on.)
And the thing is, that the view that POC had was not, in all cases, the same view as the white people had.**
People are raised in a particular situation. They tend not to think about that situation much. They may not be aware that that situation is actually radically different from many of the other situations in the world, that it privileges them in certain ways (while disadvantaging them in others). They may not be aware that the views it leaves them with are not actually objective, but contain all sorts of assumptions, many of which less advantaged people find offensive.
When these things are pointed out, these people (who may be very nice people) tend to get defensive. Because _they_ aren't bigoted. And, of course, many of them aren't. But that doesn't mean they can't do bigoted things, or occasionally do things that offend people, because the very situation in which they are existing is sustained by bigotry. Not major level bigotry, per-se, we're not talking about South Africa in the 80s here, but the low-level type that grinds people down and makes life harder for them.
Anyway - you mention to these (perfectly nice) people that they've done something bigoted and (if they've never encountered this before) they get defensive. They get upset. They assume that because people are saying bad things about them these people must be trolling.
Because, let's face it, we've all encountered people on the internet who delight in causing chaos, eliciting any kind of negative emotional response, and then vanishing into the distance with an evil cackle. After you bump into your 50th you learn to shout "Beware of the troll!" whenever you see one.
What happens when it's not a troll? What happens when it turns out that they're real people, with real hurt, caused by real problems? People who are realising that they are not alone in their anger. People who have been drawn out by others clearly explaining their anger. People who realise that they can voice their anger in public - and are damn well going to do so?
RaceFail happens.
Now, I don't like anger. But I've had to deal with it on a large number of occasions.
I've had friends who didn't know how to let anger out. Who had it poison them from the inside. Who needed help to let it out. Heck, I had to be persuaded that it was ok for _me_ to get angry, because the thought always scared me. And when I was persuaded, I know that I was hell to be around for a while - because there always seemed to be more anger bubbling to the surface, undirected, and likely to hurt people around me. But it's so much better than having it on the inside, turning into misery and depression.
And in the long run it was worth it. I'm much happier now. More tolerant too. Better able to deal with other people's anger.
And then someone yesterday pointed me at this piece about Yelling Class, which made much the same point.
And I hope that this explosion makes things better in the long run. That it's not a blip, followed by a re-bottling-up of emotion. That it means that voices that were pent up are able to speak. That people will understand more. I do hope that after the echoes of the explosion die down we will hear the sound of less angry debate, of more and more people explaining why there was so much hurt. Of people learning from it, and passing on that learning to the next person.
Three days ago you couldn't have paid me to get involved in RaceFail. I thought I had it pegged. I thought it was a mass of flame and invective. Yesterday and today were spent learning more, partially from the people who came and talked to me, partially from looking at the arguments in more detail and seeing exactly who was being aggressive and why, tracing back the levels of hurt, and not just handwaving it all as a homogenous disaster.
I'm glad I did. I wish I'd done it sooner.
I'm trying.
I will get this wrong.
And, to be honest, it scares the hell out of me.
But I think I have to try.
*From my perspective. You are, of course, completely welcome to have your own perspective.
**For some given definition of "white". If you want arguments about the subtleties of that then follow that link .
I know I will.
And to be honest, it scares the hell out of me.
But I've pretty much persuaded myself that to not talk about this is wrong. That putting my fingers in my ears and pretending it's not happening is not a reasonable response. That I can't just back quietly away and ignore it.
I'm lucky. I get to make that choice. I _have_ the privilege to ignore it, because I'm not personally affected by it. As privilege's go it's pretty small-fry. I mean, I'm also lucky enough not to be living in a country where religion and law are the same thing, to not be part of a gender that frequently has to choose between children and workplace success, to not be living in a region where education is nigh-unknown and the only way to earn a living is to recycle the waste of richer countries.
I have a lot of privilege, and I manage to avoid talking, or even thinking, about most of it, most of the time. This one's only getting talked about because it's a topic of conversation "close" to me, insofar as it keeps popping up on my friends list, and a bunch of people took the time and effort to try and educate me over the last 48 hours, so I feel owe them trying to explain some of what I've learned.
I will get this wrong. I know I will. But I feel I have to _try_. And then, when people have pointed out where I've gone wrong, try again. And keep trying.
Anyway.
Waaaaaay back at the dawn of time (start of January, you can find links by clicking on "earlier" three or four times in this list) there were a couple of posts about Writing The Other. The exact contents of those posts aren't actually that important, in the grand scheme of things*. What was important* was that they kicked off a big discussion about People Of Colour (POC) and the role they play in SF.
And that kicked off a big discussion about the role that POC play in the SF industry.
And that kicked off a big discussion about the role that POC play in SF fandom.
(Those two might have happened the other way round - there's been a lot of parallell discussion going on.)
And the thing is, that the view that POC had was not, in all cases, the same view as the white people had.**
People are raised in a particular situation. They tend not to think about that situation much. They may not be aware that that situation is actually radically different from many of the other situations in the world, that it privileges them in certain ways (while disadvantaging them in others). They may not be aware that the views it leaves them with are not actually objective, but contain all sorts of assumptions, many of which less advantaged people find offensive.
When these things are pointed out, these people (who may be very nice people) tend to get defensive. Because _they_ aren't bigoted. And, of course, many of them aren't. But that doesn't mean they can't do bigoted things, or occasionally do things that offend people, because the very situation in which they are existing is sustained by bigotry. Not major level bigotry, per-se, we're not talking about South Africa in the 80s here, but the low-level type that grinds people down and makes life harder for them.
Anyway - you mention to these (perfectly nice) people that they've done something bigoted and (if they've never encountered this before) they get defensive. They get upset. They assume that because people are saying bad things about them these people must be trolling.
Because, let's face it, we've all encountered people on the internet who delight in causing chaos, eliciting any kind of negative emotional response, and then vanishing into the distance with an evil cackle. After you bump into your 50th you learn to shout "Beware of the troll!" whenever you see one.
What happens when it's not a troll? What happens when it turns out that they're real people, with real hurt, caused by real problems? People who are realising that they are not alone in their anger. People who have been drawn out by others clearly explaining their anger. People who realise that they can voice their anger in public - and are damn well going to do so?
RaceFail happens.
Now, I don't like anger. But I've had to deal with it on a large number of occasions.
I've had friends who didn't know how to let anger out. Who had it poison them from the inside. Who needed help to let it out. Heck, I had to be persuaded that it was ok for _me_ to get angry, because the thought always scared me. And when I was persuaded, I know that I was hell to be around for a while - because there always seemed to be more anger bubbling to the surface, undirected, and likely to hurt people around me. But it's so much better than having it on the inside, turning into misery and depression.
And in the long run it was worth it. I'm much happier now. More tolerant too. Better able to deal with other people's anger.
And then someone yesterday pointed me at this piece about Yelling Class, which made much the same point.
And I hope that this explosion makes things better in the long run. That it's not a blip, followed by a re-bottling-up of emotion. That it means that voices that were pent up are able to speak. That people will understand more. I do hope that after the echoes of the explosion die down we will hear the sound of less angry debate, of more and more people explaining why there was so much hurt. Of people learning from it, and passing on that learning to the next person.
Three days ago you couldn't have paid me to get involved in RaceFail. I thought I had it pegged. I thought it was a mass of flame and invective. Yesterday and today were spent learning more, partially from the people who came and talked to me, partially from looking at the arguments in more detail and seeing exactly who was being aggressive and why, tracing back the levels of hurt, and not just handwaving it all as a homogenous disaster.
I'm glad I did. I wish I'd done it sooner.
I'm trying.
I will get this wrong.
And, to be honest, it scares the hell out of me.
But I think I have to try.
*From my perspective. You are, of course, completely welcome to have your own perspective.
**For some given definition of "white". If you want arguments about the subtleties of that then follow that link .
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no subject
Date: 2009-03-11 10:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-11 10:13 pm (UTC)THAT RIGHT THERE. Oh, Andy, that right there. For me, that is the central lesson to be learned from RaceFail09. Especially for writers - that's what started the whole thing, you know? We try, we fail, we listen, we try again.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-11 10:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-11 10:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-11 10:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-11 10:40 pm (UTC)surely its exploration
I've lived in other places, not white, not first world
not where my face or accent belongs even in a white western world
the internet, or the world wide web, just isnt!
its white, young, middle class and educated
in the main (obviously!)
i wouldn't have felt it was the best place to start tbh
no subject
Date: 2009-03-11 10:46 pm (UTC)I'm from Australia. You learn to appreciate fire here, when you've seen trees actually explode and the very ground ablaze, from horizon to horizon, and you learn that without the fire, the trees won't germinate...
Mostly, I've been clear of the RaceFail blastzone because I'm not in Fandom, and I'm not in SpecFic, and the places I am in have been dealing with these issues for years.
It steamengines when it comes steam engine time.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-11 11:28 pm (UTC)One new initiative is Verb Noire (http://community.livejournal.com/verb_noire/) a new press, and it's been very cool watching their fundraising box (scroll down). As of tonight - they've already gone over 300% of their target.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-11 11:29 pm (UTC)As I said elsewhere, I don't believe I am a racist but some things I do or say may be interpreted as racist from other perspectives. I think I do more anti-racist things than racist things, but until that ratio gets to 100%/0% then I still have to learn. And the first thing, the thing you articulated so well here, is to learn not to let fear of getting it wrong cause inaction and silence, because that will be wrong. Maybe wrong versus definitely wrong? We have to take a chance on the former, because maybe wrong also means maybe right.
Thanks Andy.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-11 11:37 pm (UTC)One thing I am unconvinced about is the idea that everybody MUST get involved, and even more specifically, that only white people have the privilege of deciding not to. That's obviously true of racism-in-general, but I don't think it's true of this particular iteration of the argument (or any other iteration, for that matter.) And I don't believe that every single POC on the internet who has heard about this has joined in, either.
And no matter the reasons behind it - and there are many, and they are often justified - it looks from the outside like a mass of flame and invective, because almost every conversation has at least some of that in it. Is it really going to be improved by every single person on the internet putting in their $2, or is that just going to lead to more flame and invective, because people are so entrenched in their positions and assumptions now?
Genuine question - I'm not criticising you for posting at all, and I have just posted a few links to parts of it myself.
(Edited for slight backpedalling about the amount of flame and invective, there, but that is the immediate impression of it.)
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 08:21 am (UTC)What I came to realise was that almost any honest discussions of race are going to have some of that in them - because people will say clueless things, people will get defensive, and people will get their anger triggered.
If we wait for the perfectly polite discussion before we listen or get involved, it'll never happen.
And no. Nobody _has_ to get involved. But when it's affecting reasonably large chunks of my friends list, I feel that I have to at least educate myself. And when I learn things then I need to share them, so that other people can too.
I don't plan to make this a major campaigning point. I may never write about RaceFail again. But I learned something, and I shared it, and I'll be trying to be better about the way I deal with racism and other people's responses to it.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 05:33 pm (UTC)I'm definitely trying to educate myself. I just haven't got to the point where I can see me joining in doing any good yet :->
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 11:07 pm (UTC)I'm not sure that we need to actively "do good". I only made the second post because I felt that the effort that people had put into the first post deserved it. There are many things to put effort into, and racism in fandom may or may not make your top ten list.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 12:01 am (UTC)This? This post fills me with happiness and respect. Thank you. (not that you need my validation *wry*)
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 08:25 am (UTC)People are going to be clueless until they learn. And then carry on being intermittently clueless after that. People are going to be angry for a while too - and then they'll be triggered intermittently after that.
There are some people that deserve to be dropped (I laughed at someone for arguing with Jordan Bassior the other day), but if we push away all the clueless people that leaves us with a teeny percentage of the planet.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 02:53 pm (UTC)Lots of people of color (and others) drop clueless people not because they're upset by the cluelessness, but because they need to do it for their own self-defense, emotionally and psychologically.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 02:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 12:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 11:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 11:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 01:08 pm (UTC)It is very appreciated.
And, as for the scary thing, of course it is. I don't like to get things wrong, and I really don't like to hurt people. That's a bad combination a lot of people steer well wide of.
It's the ones who don't that make it worth it.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 03:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 03:08 pm (UTC)But I also accept that waiting for all angriness to die down before debating means that you will be waiting forever to have that discussion, and that raised voices don't mean you should discount everything that's said.
I'd hope that you'd see this in addition to the previous piece, not as a replacement.
I'm also curious as to how you reached this post - rydra_wong? Or was I picked up by someone else?
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 03:43 pm (UTC)I agree with both; but I don't think that raised voices are the only thing that has been wrong with the ongoing flamewar (I can't in all honesty call it a discussion), not by far.
I'd hope that you'd see this in addition to the previous piece, not as a replacement.
That sounds fair; I'll venture an attempt to explain in a separate comment why I see things differently than how this post describes them.
I'm also curious as to how you reached this post - rydra_wong? Or was I picked up by someone else?
rydra_wong.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 03:46 pm (UTC)I'll definitely be interested to hear your point of view. When I went looking I found far less invective from the POC side of things, and I found an awful lot of good discussion, but I haven't looked everywhere, and I'm always happy to have new data.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 03:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 03:36 pm (UTC)I have thought about this further, and I'm not convinced that you _needed_ to shout at me in order to get your point across, or that it was more effective with you shouting. I am convinced that, at least sometimes, it is possible to shout _and_ communicate.
So I'm still comfortable with the bit in the middle of my post, but the conclusion has definitely been modified, based on evidence. This isn't my second example of this, by the way, other people also gave examples. Which was nice, as that was what I'd asked for.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-14 12:27 am (UTC)The flaw in the argument is the same flaw in the "teach them by flogging" argument. Or the "cut the thief's hand off" argument, if you want to turn the volume up *real* loud.
Negative conditioning does work. Just, not very efficiently.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-14 02:18 pm (UTC)Of course, you're probably also having to work against the conditioning they have around them all the time.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 05:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 06:09 pm (UTC)Of course, this is just one interpretation I could offer, but I'm trying not to have any, and just figured you might one of the disused ones.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-12 11:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-13 10:55 am (UTC)