Further info

[andrewducker]

[Poll #1222205]
You may not already know this - but you can edit the entries you've done by clicking on the poll header above and then selecting "fill out poll". Sadly, you can't remove your existence from the poll. Oh - if you click on "submit poll" without actually selecting anything then you can see the results. Just don't fill anything in if you're a man. Unless you really _do_ want to trumpet your incompetence to the world.

This was inspired by the comments here and here about why some women get hassled more than others.

Also, I'd like to thank pizza.maircrosoft.com for summing up my argument terribly concisely here with the words:
There are so many, many people who make off-colour jokes that align them with the obnoxious men to their listeners, even if /they/ know they'd never actually do X, Y, Z. - which was exactly what I meant - because I work quite hard to make sure that I'm not being lumped in with those people.

(and that gets rid of the last five emails I've had sitting there since the 4th, waiting for me to do _something_ with them.)

Comments

[communicator.livejournal.com]

I think I'll throw out your results because people don't hassle plump middle aged ladies, thank god. I used to bloody hate it.

[andrewducker]

Which is useful data in and of itself.

I'm not trying to prove anything here - I'm just interested in seeing what people's experiences are.

It was about 3 years ago that I suddenly went from being hassled in the street to not, and I think that I changed age bracket from "young adult" to "adult" in some way - and that people just don't hassle "adults" as much.

[likeneontubing.livejournal.com]

i don't like to say this at all, because doing so *might* imply it's the woman's fault and this is not what i mean at all, ever. it's always the nutjob's fault. never the woman's, (although they can put themselves slightly more at risk, i think taking that idea too seriously tends to result in blame culture for the women involved). even if someone lies drunk and naked in the middle of the street and gets raped, it's still the person who-is-doing-it's fault. if you get me.

but i do tend to attract nutters. on the bus, in the street, anywhere really. 'one of those faces' is a phrase i've heard often by people i tell about this kind of thing.

[andrewducker]

Yeah - I felt odd about the conversations I linked to - because there's a difficult line to be drawn between blaming the victim and looking at the causation behind what happened.

To take your example, if someone lying naked in the street got raped then it would definitely be the fault of the rapist, but an awful lot of people who at the least be unsurprised that it had happened, and feel that the woman who lay naked in the street had contributed to the situation. The problem is that "placing yourself in danger" is frequently equated to "at fault for the bad thing that happened".

To sum up - it's the lion's fault for eating you, but please don't climb into the cage.

[hfnuala.livejournal.com]

I used to get a fair amount (monthly) of street harassment but now don't. I think I just got older.

The worst bit of random harassment was a man decided it was personally offensive to have to see me wearing cycling shorts. I asked the woman with him how she could tolerate such a pig and then locked myself into the loo and shock for 5 minutes.

[andrewducker]

Yeah - I think I got older too.

And I'm not surprised by the second paragraph. That's a terrible way to behave towards you. It's the kind of behaviour that drives me into a rage.

[asim.livejournal.com]

Damn, this has been a fascinating (and infuriating) conversation.

Do you mind if I point people to it?

[andrewducker]

Of course.

[girl-onthego.livejournal.com]

I replied "something else," because the only real answer to "the particular area I live/work in" would be because I live on planet earth.

I think it's more because some men are just assholes who see women as being there for their personal entertainment, whether that be through intimidation or displays of dominance or whatever else. There are assholes out there who only feel better about themselves when they're putting someone else down, and it's nothing to do with countries, cultures, neighborhoods, or anything else. There's no other way to put it.

[elorie.livejournal.com]

What she said.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

I'm oblivious, possibly partly intentional, so it takes determined effort for me to realize that some stranger is talking to me. At parties, though, when I go to them, I tend to expect a certain amount of hassle from random men. So that frequency will relate directly to how often I go to parties. And large group things are hard for me (partly because I have to expect to need energy to fend off random and not so random men), so I don't go to them much.

Here via asim.

[ladysisyphus.livejournal.com]

I don't get harassed that often, but I'm not a very attractive woman, and I live/work in a pretty well-to-do area where there's not a lot of street culture. When I used to go into Manhattan all the time, I got comments a lot more often, but I also interacted with 500% more strangers daily there than I do today.

Some men have been given the impression that if something falls into their arena of awareness, they are within their rights to demand interaction with it. I don't think it's 'the culture in my country'; I think it's 'the particular version of masculinity that informs the behaviour of some real assholes', and it's hardly particular to the US.

Sure, pretty girls in short skirts are going to get harassed a lot more than plus-size twenty-something me in my teacher clothes. But I hate the reaction that says, well, if those girls don't want to be harassed, they shouldn't wear those skirts! Because the problem there is 100% the harasser's fault.

[xquiq.livejournal.com]

It definitely depends on what I'm wearing. I regularly get 'appreciative comments' that many people would class as unwelcome, but it's a long time since anyone has said anything downright lewd or scary.

I don't often get what I would regard as 'hassle' these days. Since I reckon I'm still fairly young-looking, I can only presume it's something to do with the way I carry myself or the fact I tend to look more well-groomed than I did as a student (my job requires it and in any case, even at 27 more effort is required than at 18).

One thing I've often noted more generally is that if I'm smartly dressed, well-groomed and close to my target weight, I get much better treatment than when I don't make the effort. Or as I have occasionally considered, the more money it looks as though I might have, the better my experience when out and about: sad, but true to my personal experience.

[kightp.livejournal.com]

I believe the reason I am not hassled in public is my age. At 58, I've become invisible to the kinds of young men who used to hassle me regularly when I was younger, and who I see hassling younger women now. In both cases, I blame the culture.

I find, interestingly, that I like being that kind of invisible. It gives me great freedom.

[autodidactic.livejournal.com]

I'm 36, and I'm beginning to notice this too. Back when I was dancing, I always thought it was because of me. Nah, age is a HUGE mitigating factor.

I expect I'll fade completely off the map when I get enough grey hair.

[melanie.livejournal.com]

i'm 35 and usually have children in tow, so i don't get hassled much. actually, when i am out in public with my kids it pretty much makes me "invisible". i don't even get those quick up-and-down gauging glances, they just see kids and their eyes glance away.

now...still at 35, when i go out without the kids I get double glances, the occasional (maybe one or twice daily) head whipping around, and maybe one time out of ten someone will come up and try to start a conversation with me. i get "hassled" by construction workers and the like about the same amount when my kids are not with me (about one time out of ten) but it might be more often than that and i just don't notice - as i have been trained since pre-puberty to completely ignore all of that, and at this point i do a good job of blocking it from my consciousness entirely.

when i was in my 20's, i could not walk a block without getting some sort of animal noise, beeped horn, or kissing noise. i learned before i had hit puberty to NEVER MAKE EYE CONTACT because once that happened, rude comments and even ruder gestures would follow. i just learned to effectively make a man become invisible to me the moment he got rude.

[melanie.livejournal.com]

oh - on the other hand - my older daughter is 15 and she can't go a block without some sort of comment or noise, heads whipping around and sometimes entire bodies turning around to watch her walk by. but she's even more oblivious than i am - as a lesbian, her effect on men is something she totally doesn't care about enough to notice. i keep a mental count of "whiplashes" and we laugh about it later.

[cybik.livejournal.com]

..mostly it's a comment about my hair (currently green). Farnham is a very, very conservative area. I'm thinking maybe I should stop having really unnatural hair, because Dumfries is a much, much worse place to look odd. At least Farnham has a lot of students.

[kshandra]

*waves* Purple stripes here. But I'm in the SF Bay Area, so the comments my hair generates actually tend to be fairly positive. My favorite was shortly after I had it done; I was meeting up with supersniffles, who has kept her hair pink for several years now. Someone having a cigarette outside the restaurant where we were meeting poked his buddy and shouted, "OMG, she has pink hair, and she has purple hair! Dude, I totally gotta do mine blue now!"

[ladypyrate.livejournal.com]

Hi! Came this way via Asim.

I'll be 37 in a couple of months, and am on the heavy side. I don't get hassled for the most part. I do have guys that enjoy flirting with me (and vice versa) but strangers on the street don't bother me.

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

Surprise, I'll say some probably unpopular things.

I have rarely been hassled nuch in my life even when much younger - and I was not totally unattractive then and travelled a fair bit alone, abroad and in this country, using public transport etc, ever since I was, um, maybe mid 20s. Not entirely over the hill :)

I think some people do attract harassment (In the not their fault, but causally connected way); either by making a fuss about it (eg calling insults back, clearly getting upset by it, fleeing etc); or by as someone suggests below, having a very thin skin to what might be called "hassle".

Is it always "hassle" for someone to think you interesting or attractive? is it always threatening and intrusive? To give an example (to show I'm not talking about builder's wolf whistles, which decidedly are) today on the bus a man asked me if I was Spanish, seemed politely interested, and asked me if I wanted to go for a drink. as we both got off. It was c 8pm and daylight in a crowded area. i wasn't hassled or worried; i was if anything vaguely flattered (as several people say above, your`attitude to such things perhaps changes when you get over 40 and turn into invisible womankind.)

Of course it's the always the fault of the hassler not the victim; but the potential victim can do things to make their life easier without , I think, abandoning their core personality. I don't make eye contact with poetential hasslers, but I also walk fairly boldly with my head`up. I don't, I think, give off "vicim" signs. If I go out wearing something very low cut, I will probably wear a jacket or something over it (though in this country that's as much for weather reasons.) I do think (oh dear) that some people give out confused signals that say I want attention while at the same time, hating it (no I don't mean short skirts here).

[cybik.livejournal.com]

If I make eye contact with someone, I pretty much expect them to say something, but if I'm sitting somewhere and reading some people seem to think that I want attention, despite the fact I'm paying no attention to the world whatsoever.

I knew that dyeing my hair would mean I'd get comments, but I think it's the unnaturalness that really sets people off. When it was red (blood red, not exactly natural), I got fewer remarks and more were positive. In Farnham I can deal with it, but if I move back home and it's a lot worse I'll consider changing my hair colour just so I don't have to deal with it. I guess people think my hair is a cry for attention. I just like the colour.

If I do wear a short skirt or dress, I'm much more likely to get comments, even if I'm wearing a coat over it. I think that might be something to do with how I walk, because if I'm wearing a dress it's likely that I'm wearing heels.

[vistillia.livejournal.com]

I get hassled constantly. I know I'm a heavy person. Really I do, honest. Pointing out that it would be helpful if I would lose some weight, suggesting diets, suggesting exercise some of it well intentioned, some of it just to show that they can take time out for someone they feel is less of a person than they are. I've been on diets since I was eight, just about every fad one you can think of, and I do exercise. I have random strangers say something about it about once a week. And if I do try to walk on a road, I've lost count of the number of times people in passing vehicles have thrown things at me. I've been mocked for driving a car instead of walking, I guess they like an easier target to throw things at. It's as if being fat gives license to everyone to make my life miserable, because I don't know what I'm doing. Mostly I just ignore the other people.

Here via asim

[jenwrites.livejournal.com]

Here because of asim. I used to get hassled more when I was younger, but as soon as I managed to figure out how to project a "don't fuck with me" attitude, the incidents dropped off sharply. So now I'm much more likely to simply have someone stare without moving beyond that. I also think the fact that I'm 5'11" with shoulders like a linebacker helps me. I suspect that many guys look at me and think, "Geez, she's bigger than I am -- could she take me?"

[girl-onthego.livejournal.com]

Actually, despite the mild hassle I do get - which is mostly the occasional shouted comment, when I was in Scotland I did have a couple times where older teen guys (usually in groups) ran by and slapped/grabbed my ass. Once I managed to grab the f*cker's hand, and I think I gave him the scare of his life...

ANYWAY, got a bit sidetracked there, but my point was going to be a chime in to the "don't fuck wiht me" attitude idea; not a lot of people want to mess with a 5-ft-11 chick in a black leather trench coat who could probably shove her boot halfway up their arse if they pissed her off too much.

Obv the black trenchcoat wearing incidents are less now that I'm in Brooklyn/Manhattan, where it's boiling hot all the time, but these days I just blank everybody who I walk by because I don't want to deal with them.

[damedini.livejournal.com]

I don't get hassled often. Didn't as a Barbie-doll shaped teen, either. I have given this thought because I have friends who do get hassled frequently and I was stunned by that because I simply don't (unless the guy is drunk out of his mind, or high, which apparently negated whatever barriers the others sense). And I get rude comments in those situations where the commenter has done somethign stupid and is striking out because he bloody well knows he looks like a prat.

I have been attacked (non sexually) several times and I know absolutely that I can defend myself if need be. While I won't say I /won/ against the drugged high-school-champion wrestler, I *certainly* didn't lose. And I think this shows in how I carry myself. I suppose it's possible that slurs are intended, but I simply don't interpret them as such if they are. If I am with someone who makes inappropriate comments in earnest, I respond as you'd respond to a slightly stupid child. A shocked look, distaste and "don't you know what that term means?" Or "what are you, twelve?"

I am hassled at least once a week because ...

[varakesh516.livejournal.com]

I am 5'9", slender, blonde, and well proportioned. A few years ago I was hassled at least once a day, usually several times a day.

As a blonde in the culture I was viewed by most men in one or both of two ways:
1. I was easy.
2. I was dumb.

I am neither.

As a blonde in this culture I was viewed/am viewed my most women in one or all of the followin ways:

1. I don't trust you.
2. You are going to steal my husband, my job, my xxxx
3. You are manipulative.
4. You are spoiled.

Women would literally size me up and down in less than 15 seconds and their entire body language would change.

I am trustworthy, and as for the other three, and am none of the above.

All of this has been a total drag all of my life.



All of the

[aminahfiddler.livejournal.com]

I think some of it is how you perceive the comment(s). Is "You look good" harassment? or a compliment? I know it depends on a lot of factors. I think my experience is that I haven't really been harassed or it's been years.

The way I carry myself? that I'm overweight? Could be those reasons too.

[easyalchemy.livejournal.com]

Followed a link from Asim - I often get harassed, or talked-down-to, because I work in video, and for some reason men seem to think that pretty ol'me couldn't possibly own and operate such heavy equipment, let alone own and operate my own video production business.
Also, I think if you're kinda ballsy and opinionated, and act like you have a right to your opinions, you get harassed.

[belgatherial.livejournal.com]

Here via asim

This made me think a lot, so it's kinda long. Apologies.

I am just about never hassled. To the point that when I am, it's always a bit of a surprise. And this isn't new, and it isn't place specific, because I have lived all over the world, and it has been constant, pretty much my whole life. I am, I believe, a 28 year old attractive woman. I have curves in the right places, and I have pretty much been able to get the attention when I want it since I was about 18. (I was a very awkward teenager, but that's another story). So it's not the place, and it's not that I don't have confidence or am, in some weird way, 'not pretty enough' (although I hasten to add I don't really think that that has anything to do with why some men feel the need to hassle some women and not others).

I think it's a combination of things. I am pretty confident, and I carry myself with confidence. I also have a tendency to dress in trousers rather than skirts, but having said that, I don't get hassled when I do wear skirts either, so I don't really think it's that. I suspect I may give off "don't mess with me" vibes, but it seems that other women who do that do sometimes get hassled, so maybe it's not that either. A friend of mine once told me that I give off the air of someone who is very much 'taken'. I am in a very happy monogamous relationship, but I didn't get hassled much before then either, so it can't be that. However, on the rare occasions someone makes random overtures, flashing my wedding band around normally gets rid of them. Which I know doesn't work for everyone.

I suspect it has something to do with how I carry myself. I tend to walk with purpose, even when I don't have one, which I suspect puts people off from interfering. I was a dancer, so I also walk with pretty good posture, which maybe gives off confidence vibes. Having said that though, I am appalled by some of the stories in the above comments. I don't think I have ever had an experience, outside of a bar involving very drunken boys, where a man has actually tried to grope me without consent. I have had the very occasional catcalls, or 'expressions of interest', shall we say, but even those are few and far between. In situations involving alcohol and testerone, even, there have been very few occasions where something like that has happened without some sort of overture from me, and normally only when the guy in question (and this was only ever back in my student days, so he was probably hopped up on 19 year old hormones) tried to kiss me with not so much as a 'hi, what's your name', but I quickly moved out of his way and he sort of lost track of where I was. It's just not the sort of thing that happens to me.

I think it has something to do with the way I am, and the way I come across (apparently I can seem very intimidating, although I don't feel that way at all). But, honestly, I am not really sure.

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

You sound like a lot me. I think walking in a way that shows confidence really does inhibit hassle. Doesn't necc involve being taken cos I'm not :-:) I pretty much learnt to do this at a very good women's self defense class i went to after getting mugged in London in my 20s. Also wearing gear you'e comfortable with (not necessarily unsexy)and can walk briskly in. If I really want to wear proper heels at a do I have to walk to, I take them in my bag.

[aliiis.livejournal.com]

...I don't think there's anything homogeneous enough for me to talk about it as "the culture in my country"?

[the-xtina.livejournal.com]

I don't really leave the house that often, and I have my Shuffle on when I do, so I have no idea if random folk hassle me about things.

Although I do get the occasional asshole who honks and shouts something because I'm outside while female, or someone who's overly drunk and decides to chat me up because I'm female and thus should be interested.  When walking, though, I usually have such an air of not interacting with the world that I don't get much, and don't really register whether it does.

I chalk it up to whichever culture tells men that women exist to receive whatever men decide to give them.

Feedback

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

I have been hassled a few times, though it's been years since it happened. It's not a prevailing habit where I live, though it does happen to some women. Most of the time when moving through public space, I am either briskly confident or so ellusive that people don't notice me.

On the rare occasions people have made vulgar remarks to me, my typical responses are:
1) Respond in kind if it seems playful.
2) Respond with substantially more colorful language, if it seems aimed at making me uncomfortable. So far all perpetrators have been greatly taken aback by my depth and boldness of language, and hastily backed off.
3) If aggression seems unsafe, disrupt the standard harassment script: "Hi, I'm doing a study on sexual harassment. Thank you SO much for volunteering! Would you mind answering a few questions?" We discovered this terrifically successful tactic in a women's studies class when doing an actual study. It seriously puts harassers off-balance and stops the attack.

YMMV, but this is what works for me.

Re: Feedback

[girl-onthego.livejournal.com]

"2) Respond with substantially more colorful language, if it seems aimed at making me uncomfortable. So far all perpetrators have been greatly taken aback by my depth and boldness of language, and hastily backed off."

That's brilliant, as is your third suggestion - I wish I could be quick enough to come back with that kind of stuff when people do say offensive stuff to me.

[e-scapism101.livejournal.com]

I don't tend to get hassled, but I think there are a lot of factors involved. I tend to be with my children (two boys, 3 and 6), I give off a librarian vibe in a big way, and I really tend to ignore or be amused by idiots - as long as they aren't threatening me or touching me, I brush things off and/or try to make a judgement about the type of person it's coming from as to how it might be intended, kwim?

[moonborn.livejournal.com]

Since getting pregnant and subsequently carting around a baby most times in public I have become one of the invisible masses to would-be harrassers.
Women and children react to me more, though.