Delicious LiveJournal Links for 7-2-2008

[andrewducker]

• The apparent backlash against feminism
  Scary, scary piece.
  (tags: feminism gender politics women uk)

Comments

[meaningrequired.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I don't know how women are going to have a good argument for "equal" rights.

Some DO take time off to have children, returning part-time.

Perhaps the problem isnt with the women, but the employers. where the employees are no longer people, but robots of varying levels of efficiency. Perhaps, its not just an attack on women, but its a change in perception of employees.

Myself and Richard were talking about how economically people became selfish in the 80's, and now society has become socially selfish in the.... 00s. I feel its a reflection of that.

I worry that because of my age, there are lots of inequality that I don't even take the time to notice. The author reports that a woman had to walk past a lapdancing club every night to get home. Technically, so do I. Though, I don't think anything of it. Should I? Should it bother me?

I believe being a woman and fighting your way through your career, through the men who would rather have another man in the role is part and parcel of my (future) experience. I suppose, it shouldnt be, and perhaps I wrongly accept that it will be.

Perhaps I just don't see how these attitudes will ever change.

Numbers

[intemporaliter.livejournal.com]

A lot of the wages comparison depends on what criteria are used for collaring the numbers. I'd like to see (this is a hint if anyone knows of some) a study that at least attempts to look at the wage-gap fairly. I work in the public sector, and I'd say it's not so bad here - lots of women in the top echelons, pay-scale for almost everyone purely dependent on your job & how long you've been in it. I look around and things look okay. However, other people make me aware they're not. I try to look into it, but most of the numbers you see are sensationalist, so I can't take the reporting seriously.
A personal peeve is also that this extends to things like lapdancing clubs, that are then focused on strongly. Personally, I quite like going to lap dancing clubs, and I definately don't object to walking past them (though I admit that if it's late at night I could do without the yobs outside). I realise that the objectification of the female body is a problem, but find it difficult to decide on a sensible line between objectifying and aesthetically appreciating.
Feminism, to me, is about equality. For men and women. Any one issue, looked at carefully enough, is somewhat grey. Makes it difficult to decide where to stand...

Re: Numbers

[meaningrequired.livejournal.com]

The lapdancing club near where I live - I actually feel somewhat more secure to know that there is a big burly bouncer standing on the street at the entrance to the lap dancing club. Even though I've heard of cases when the bouncers don't actually intervene (with incidents on streets), I find the presence reassuring.

Im worried what I'm about top say is often used as an excuse to justify men's behaviour, but arent we told that men are hardwired to react to the female form? So, if its a biological instinct to view women are soft curvey things that you want to have sex with, how can that be challenged? Though, lots of men work along side women just fine.

I fear when that argument comes out, then ladettes start being examined, as women who go out, drink and act like men and get criticised. I guess thats that old thing of if a man sleeps around, hes a Lad, if a women does it, shes a Slut. Which again could be explain in biological terms. Woman can only have 1 baby at a time, men can have multiple, and sexual function seems to be something thats rated as being "good"..... actually sexual prowess IS very important, its why we have countless beauty magazines telling us how to look good (naked).

Hmm, this is becoming more incoherent in my head :) I shall stop now :)

Re: Numbers

[andrewducker]

Two things occur here:
1) it doesn't matter if men are hardwired to appreciate the female form or not - it doesn't excuse shouting things at people to make them uncomfortable. I'm hardwired to like food, but I don't steal it off of other people's plates.
2) Again, biological determinism is irrelevant - we shouldn't be applying a single standard to someone based on just their gender - people vary massively across a gender, so applying any one rule is just obnoxious.

Re: Numbers

[meaningrequired.livejournal.com]

Please tell this to the many writers of self-help books, ie men are from mars and women, venus :)

Re: Numbers

[meaningrequired.livejournal.com]

Also, I accept that certain attitudes are "incorrect" or at least, detrimental to women to hold.

However, I'm trying to understand where they come from. I believe there are strong differences between men and women, and its going to take along time when the differences stop being compared, and appreciated for their own value. What I mean by this is IN GENERAL men are stronger than women. Men can carry greater weights across greater distance. Men have a physical advantage. I wonder if this advantage bleeds into other dimensions such as the work places, and thus leads others to justify unequal treatment to women.

We're still animals.

I suppose the other view point is that one group of people is suppressing another group of people, because socially we crave power. Would women suppress men, if they had the advantage? Is it just The Human Condition?

[marrog.livejournal.com]

I have way too much to say on this. And I've said most of it before. Dear God it makes my blood boil.

[zz]

the two parts of this i don't understand as supposed problems are the lapdancing and the (nonviolent part of the) "public attention".

the former is not a gender equality issue, it's puritanism. if there were a market and available workforce, there'd be more men stripping. that some of the women do the job might partly be down to gender-affected education earlier in life meaning they don't have the skills/ambition for something else, but otoh some people actually like performing, and stripping might be a more reliable income than other dancing/etc jobs.

the second issue isn't a male conspiracy to oppress women, it's a mars/venus-y communication problem. just because women might feel assaulted by it doesn't mean it was intended as such. just as straight people fantasising about multiple homosexuals OTOS is irrational but still happens, males approaching/appraising women in a way that can only have a negative response probably isn't carefully and rationally thought out beforehand. :>

i'd even go so far as saying the asking for a blow job, if it's just asking with no deliberately (ie implied != inferred) threatening undertones, isn't an assault, just crude. then again, there's this concept of male privilege that we can't possibly understand how hard it is for women to spend every moment in public terrified of getting raped, or something.

[andrewducker]

Yeah - the last bit is the problem. You wouldn't make the kind of statement in a rape survivor's group, after all. But the stats seem to show that if you're around more than 4 women then you _are_ in the middle of a rape survivor's group...

[meaningrequired.livejournal.com]

I think in your last paragraph you're referring to the bit in the article where a woman had "suck my cock" hollered at her. To me, this isnt a request or being appreciative, its a demand, and that involves power dynamics.

There is a line between feeling complimented, and feeling threatened. Saying "you're so hot I want you right now" is very different to "suck my cock".

[pizza.maircrosoft.com (from livejournal.com)]

someone made a point somewhere (no doubt I have lost the link) that there are "compliments" that make the statement about the person saying it (something about you makes _me_ feel horny), and compliments that are purely about the complimentee (you look pretty today. I hope you have a nice day).

no doubt it's another blurry line and most things are somewhere in the blur, but I liked that distinction.

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

To me the most blood-boiling (but eventually wearying) thing is the subtle attitude thing that goes on, always has.

If Mr. X is crap at Whatever, it's cos he's crap at Whatever.

If Ms. X is crap at Whatever, then:

If Whatever is a stereotypically male task then of *COURSE* she is crap at it...

If Whatever is a sterotypically female task then look, she's doubly crap cos she can't even be good at that..


You have to be twice as good at ANYTHING to be thought of half so well (and sometimes even that is not enough). I am so incredibly tired out by all this.

[davesangel.livejournal.com]

Oh god yes. It's a fucking disgrace.

The other day I got a taxi and was asked what I do for a living. I'm a part-time postgrad student (but I also have a job which is really good). The taxi driver bypassed my current job and asked what I would do for a living after doing the degree and if I would do teaching. When I said no, that teaching doesn't interest me, I was told that cos I'm a woman it's the natural choice especially cos you get such long holidays (summers) so you can look after your kids and your husband cos being a woman of course I'm not entitled to have a fucking career or my own.

I was so flabbergasted that I literally couldn't speak to tell him to wind his fucking fat sexist head in. Women are not solely baby-making machines, and they can do jobs that men do - often better than lots of blokes! GAH. I am also so bloody tired out by all this...

[chuma.livejournal.com]

Sorry, but bollocks. If a woman outclasses me at something I think I am good at my reaction is to be impressed, especially if it is typically seen as a male thing. With men you have the constantly competitive aspects in everything you do, so when someone comes along who is away from these aspects of social oneupmanship, there is a genuine appreciation of their skill. Sometimes when there is less competitiveness, this is true of men too, but maybe it is a base social reflex to want to out do the other guy? You be the judge.

It's a tedious social thing, yes, but I utterly disagree that women can't swing it to their advantage.