"I'm not"

[andrewducker]

One of the occasional things I bump into online that drives me into a fit of rage is confusion/amusement at the idea that subculture x wants to be 'different' and yet they all look the same, where 'subculture x' can be goths, metallers, emo kids, punks, etc.

There seems to be this perception that because members of these groups look different to 'normal people' they therefore are largely striving to be different - and thus that because they look like other members of the group they have therefore failed, in a completely oblivious and amusing way.

And this baffles the living fuck out of me. Because it seems blindingly obvious that they don't want to look 'different' - they want to look _like that_. They happen to think that the aesthetic looks good, and thus they have decided to wear it. For the majority of them, if everyone in the mainstream also wore these clothes they'd be _happier_, because then more people would look cool.

But no, if people look different then it must be because 'difference' is what's important to them, not because they happen to like different things to you.

Honestly - I just want to smack people around the head sometimes.

Comments

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

But part of it is about being different, as evidenced by all those articles that quote members of the said subcultures saying 'we want to look/be/act different to the mainstream'.

[andrewducker]

cite?

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

In this article from the Scotsman, an emo girl was quoted as saying, "It's laughable that Glasgow City Council regards us some sort of threat to society simply because we choose to dress differently."

I read that as a confirmation that they are, at least in part, wearing what they wear in order to 'dress differently'. Your mileage may vary, but I confess that I think you're being just as presumptious as the people who make the claims you're blasting. There are undoubtedly members of those subcultures who dress in that way because they think it looks good, but at the same time I would say it's almost certain that there are also people who dress in that way because they like the fact that most people don't dress that way. To say it's one or the other is to say that every person in the subculture is there for the same reasons, and that's not necessarily true.

[davesangel.livejournal.com]

"It's laughable that Glasgow City Council regards us some sort of threat to society simply because we choose to dress differently."

I'd actually say that backs up andrewducker's argument - ie, they aren't dressing in that way to be different from everyone else, and so she's surprised that she's seen as a threat because by dressing in a way that is aesthetically pleasing to her she doesn't see why it should be perceived as different from 'the norm'.

I could be wrong though (I am currently studying for a hateful exam so forgive me if I misinterpreted that!). But you do make a very valid point: that, although a lot of those involved in the 'goth' scene (for example) dress in that way because they like how they look in goth clothing and makeup, a certain number of those in this subculture are deliberately dressing in that way to provoke controversy and to be different from the norm. I know people who would fall into both 'camps', so to speak. So, as you suggest, it does go both ways.

[red-phil.livejournal.com]

I think you are confusing
"I want to look different to people who I don't like, so I feel different from them"
with
"I want to look different from everybody, ever"

[dalglir.livejournal.com]

Lawl. Go Andy!

::dodges headsmack::

[captainlucy.livejournal.com]

Said that man.

Though mind you, what I've heard most people in the "scene" saying is that they don't necessarily want to look different from each other, they just want to look different from this. :D

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

hey happen to think that the aesthetic looks good, and thus they have decided to wear it. For the majority of them, if everyone in the mainstream also wore these clothes they'd be _happier_, because then more people would look cool.

I absolutely disagree.
Lots of sub culture work shows that counter culture clothing is a bonding signal for a recognuised "non mainstream" group - just as certain clothing or body decoration has been in the past for tribal cultures - and I personally think that is far more its function than "because it looks cool".

Anyway as you very well know there is no one Platonic idea of "what looks cool" and what we think is cool is formed by all our cultural influences. In Edinburgh you think wearing black t shirts with obscure cartoons on them looks cool; in a different environment (say Papua) you might think wearing a shark's gizzards stapled to your head would be really groovy. In both cases i suspect your choices have part been formed by psychological prefernces (eg bright colours wrong cos I'm an introvert) and part by recognition of attractive tribal groups whose values (geekery? metal rock loving? being good at eviscerating sharks?) you identify or want to be seen as identified with.

So saying that people in certain counter culture groups all dress the same - for al intents and purposes - is usually not wrong. What may or may not be objectionable is the parallel assertion that they also want to look DIFFERENT to (a) the norm and/or (b) each other. Like John Coxon, I susoect this - a at least - is true also but it's not something I'm bothered to argue about.

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

Precisely. I refer you to my article on T-shirts being the SF fans' equivalent of tribal tattooing in my first issue of Procrastinations.

[astartesyriaca.livejournal.com]

I think you are both right!

I can understand Andy's assertion that they aren't different, because as a "subculture", the whole "black-n-boots" thing has become huge... and yes, you have to have a discerning eye to tell the goth from the emo from the metal, etc.

However, I also think that "Kids" make these choices both because they think it looks cool, AND because they think it is different (and hence cool). As teens we are searching for our identities, and it is often music that guides the way... occasionally the other arts play a role too. Over the past 20 years (or more), we've has a huge blending of pop and sub- cultures... in some cases sub becomes pop. So I think what may to SOME of us (back in the day) have been truly edgy, now looks awfully mainstream.

I remember in MY day (when I had to walk uphill to the club in my docs WITHOUT yellow stitching - both ways!), I liked to wear black and boots and vintage and RED lips and cat eyeliner because I thought it was cool, AND different... and in the states, only Subcultures knew who Siouxsie was. I was emulating the music I liked, as well as friend whose taste I liked, and we definitely were oddballs in high school. I don't think things have changed too much, but I think us older goths paved the way so that these next motley bunch can hang out in city centres and not be thought of as TOTAL freak by everyone. Just by asshole chavs.

[andrewducker]

Lots of sub culture work shows that counter culture clothing is a bonding signal for a recognuised "non mainstream" group

Different thing. I wear black because I like it - and was doing so before I encountered any goths. But when I see someone wearing black I think "Oooh, someone like me."

And of course it's culturally influenced - but wearing black because one likes somewhat angsty things is hardly new, or specific to any one culture - I suspect that the cause is cross-cultural, and that a fair amount of the basic expression is also cross-cultural, with cultural icing on top.

I have a strong memory of the first time I encountered an Iron Maiden T-shirt - at age 13-ish. I'd never seen one before, I'd never heard Iron Maiden, I didn't even know they were a band, or that there were such things as heavy metal fans. But I saw it and thought "Wow, that's amazing." because the aesthetic spoke to me.

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

I was big-backcombed-black-hair + 4" patent heels + ankle length black hobble skirt (tailored myself from anold 70's number of my mum's), black eyeliner, red lipstick/nailpolish when I was about 13-14 - which'd make it about 1984/5. Is that too early for goth?

I can't say where I got the look from - maybe just too many glamourously evil vampires in Hammer Horror flicks?

[seph-hazard.livejournal.com]

*waves goth card vaguely in air*

I dress as I do because I like the clothes. I was dressing like this before I knew the subculture existed, and if I ever fall out of the subculture I shall continue to dress like this. It's how I look in my head, if that makes any sense to you.

You are very right and I approve [grin]

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

I suspect you might both like to read this


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inside-Subculture-Postmodern-Meaning-Culture/dp/1859733522/ref=pd_sim_b_title_3

I might too:)

[astartesyriaca.livejournal.com]

That looks great, I think I'll have to get it...

I've read this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Contemporary-Gothic-FOCI-Catherine-Spooner/dp/1861893019/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213813909&sr=1-1

I have a few problems with some of her discussion around the whole genesis of "goth" style, but she presents a good discussion of the different "variants" of goth which I think is relevant to Andy's issue.

[astartesyriaca.livejournal.com]

Ok, I'm not saying this to be snarky... but goth existed when I was in high school, and according to your user info, I graduated the year you were born. ;-)

EDIT: I just re-read that and saw you said before you KNEW it existed... sorry...

Where did you get your ideas, then? Where did you shop for your clothes?

[blackmanxy.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who wanted to "be different" for most of his adolescent years, I can tell you the impulse is most definitely there. Hell, I had friends who bragged about how nonconformist they were, and they pretty much all wore the same skater-chic attire.

So yeah, while not everyone who dresses the part of a subculture is doing it to be different, claiming no one does so is as nonsensical is claiming that everyone does so.

[ninox.livejournal.com]

Amused - I think it is a bit of both. Yes I know a lot of people that can be classed as part of a particular culture. Mainly because they like the style, but I also know plenty of teenagers that have fell into the style because it annoyed their parents. Some maintain the style because they have grown accustomed, others put it down to a fad.

I don't think it is a neat black and white scenario as you potray.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

subculture x wants to be 'different' and yet they all look the same, where 'subculture x' can be goths, metallers, emo kids, punks, etc.

That thought contains equal parts wisdom and ignorant idiocy. Yes, most members of a subculture wish to visibly identify as members of X subculture, just like most members of mainstream culture wish visibly identify as members of of the social mainstream. We are social creatures and part of all of our identities is our cultural or subcultural affiliation. Clearly, what troubles many mainstream people is that members of various subcultures are identifying as something other than the mainstream, which clearly threatens a surprising number of people, who clearly want everyone to belong to their tribe.

[andrewducker]

most members of a subculture wish to visibly identify as members of X subculture

In my experience (and general opinion) they join the subculture because that fits with the look and feel, rather than the other way round.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Very true, but this sense of belonging is then reinforced through social contact and so most people change their appearance and tastes somewhat once they have actually started spending time with other members of their choosen subculture.

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

You really don't understand people, do you?

[andrewducker]

I think you'll find that it's me that understands them, and you that doesn't...

[ishkhara.livejournal.com]

Speaking from a personal point of view I don't think I ever grew up from that little girl who loved to play with the dressing up box. It's not really about being different: it's simply about being me. :)

[marrog.livejournal.com]

I think that it is true of a lot of people you know that they belong to subculture because it agrees with them, dress the way they do because they want to, and happen to share a 'look' with others because they happen to have common tastes.

I think, however, that you give a large proportion of society way too much credit in assuming that they're not just doing it to be aggressively, intentionally, abrasively 'different'. Oh yes they do. And at the fringes of my social arena I know plenty of people who I'm pretty damn sure dress and act the way they do to be 'different' or 'edgy' or 'alt' while with the same act they put on the uniform of a culture down to the tiniest detail.

[marrog.livejournal.com]

A case in point, actually, can be seen in Goth culture with the ongoing oneupmanship you see when it comes to piercings in number and location, how tight your corset goes, how high your boots are. I find it very, very hard to believe that someone just thinks "I'm going to get a bar surface piercing on the middle of my forehead because that will look amazing" without there also being an element of relishing how 'different' it will look.

[likeneontubing.livejournal.com]

how come they seem to repeatedly site being different as their goal then?

[likeneontubing.livejournal.com]

cite.