Corner Cases Example

[andrewducker]

Here's a perfect one:
1)German employment law states that if you've been unemployed for over a year then you must take any job offered to you.
2)In a bid to cut down on the trade in women and other mistreatment of prostitutes, Germany has legalised brothels.

Can you guess what the end result of this is?

Read about it here.

I'm looking forward to reading your responses to this one :->

Comments

[birdofparadox.livejournal.com]

holy crap, man.

[catamorphism.livejournal.com]

Given that the law would presumably potentially force people to work in the defense industry, or for a tobacco manufacturer, I have no additional moral qualms about it forcing people to work in the sex industry. (Though does it really only apply to women? "any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit." -- only applying to women seems odd.)

[perceval.livejournal.com]

Nope, that sodding law applies to everybody.

An Ex-German

[heron61.livejournal.com]

I'm quite dubious about the requirement of taking any job offered even w/o that particular problem. However, if that law is to stand, then there needs to be exceptions of various sorts In addition to sex work, Jews who keep kosher, Hindus, Muslims, and vegetarians would all have trouble with certain aspects of food service or working in a butcher shop, so there clearly a need for a category of moral or religious exceptions. For the sake of fairness, people should likely have to list objections in advance (such as no sex work, no handling pork, etc...). OTOH, a better answer would likely be eliminating that law.

[lilitufire.livejournal.com]

I stand about here, too, I think, once I got over the initial bogglement.

[peteyoung.livejournal.com]

In passing that law Germany obviously didn't realise it would be creating a new Joy Division. They surely can't let it stand as it is.

[perceval.livejournal.com]

They must see sense finally. But in the mean time, can I just say that I'm glad to be out of the country ... It'll be a while before this employment law will get amended; the government will be very reluctant to amend it. The right to refuse a job on moral grounds is tricky to put into law, as well.

[broin.livejournal.com]

Genius. Ta!

[derumi.livejournal.com]

Makes me want to run an all-male anything-goes brothel in Detmold.

[cruft.livejournal.com]

"German unemployment law states that if you've been unemployed for over a year then you must take any job offered to you."

Incorrect! I gather that German unemployment law actually states that if you've been on unemployment for over a year then you must take any job offered to you if you want to stay on the dole. I don't see the problem, if that's the case.

[andrewducker]

Which works out at the same thing:

"Due to economic conditions you must now either have sex with strangers or starve. Your choice."

Not really a choice I'd be happy making people make.

[cruft.livejournal.com]

Life is hard.

[andrewducker]

And the whole point of society (outside of America, anyway) is to make it less so.

[catamorphism.livejournal.com]

How about,
"You'd better do boring, mind-crushing repetitive tasks all day or starve"
or
"You'd better give up any and all opportunity to realize your human potential or starve"
or
"You'd better work in conditions that expose you to dangerous, hazardous chemicals or starve"
or
"You'd better work in conditions that expose you to dangerous, hazardous coworkers or starve"

Are these better propositions than the one you cite?

[autodidactic.livejournal.com]

BITCH BETTAH HAVE MAH MONEY!

Love,
A.

[communicator.livejournal.com]

It's not true, it's just some urban myth put about by social conservatives as an argument against decriminalising the sex industry. In fact the German law which decriminalised prostitution put some explicit controls in place - you aren't allowed to coerce women into prostitution, prostitutes don't have to work enforced hours or work out a notice period if they resign etc. In other words, the law is set up so that nobody has to work for even one day in the sex industry without full consent.

If it were set up like this it would be appalling of course, but it could never happen in a Western social democracy.

[stillcarl.livejournal.com]

It does seem to be a story with little foundation, as in it doesn't seem to be government policy. From here: http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=664273

Mon Jan 31, 2005

A spokesman for the Federal Labour Office said that if job seekers said they were prepared to work as, for example, dancers in strip bars, advisers could put them in touch with any suitable employers, but vacancies would not be displayed in job centres.

He also stressed job centres would not look for prostitutes on behalf of brothels, nor offer sex industry jobs to people who hadn't specifically mentioned it as an area of interest.

Speculation has grown over recent weeks that Germany's new welfare reforms, obliging the long-term unemployed to take any available job or risk losing their benefits, could lead to women being offered jobs in the sex industry.

So, no more than speculation, with the original article Andrew cited being a bit of a beat-up, I suspect.

[rainstorm.livejournal.com]

Surely that could count as abusing a person's human rights? Sex can hurt a LOT, for starters. And what about someone who's been raped or otherwise abused?

I think if I was a German citizen faced with that choice I'd be trying to move to a different country.

[catamorphism.livejournal.com]

Picking strawberries on your knees for 10 hours a day hurts, too.

[robhu.livejournal.com]

Forced sex has an immense psychologically damaging effect on the majority of people - that effect is long lasting and has a broad reaching effect. Picking strawberries on your knees hurts but has an immensely smaller effect.

Let's aim to stop people having to hurt their knees at some point in the future, but target the things which have a far far greater effect now.

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

There was an interview with Rammstein that I saw where they explain how, since they grew up in East Germany, they couldn't be unemployed - the condition wasn't an available option, they were all given jobs.

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

As a side note, the law in this country (or my perception of it when I was last unemployed) means that a variety of benefits hinge on you being actively looking for work. This doesn't stop people not bothering and still getting benefits.

The issue in this arguments is about getting forced to have a job.

Ignore what the job is, that's just heading into moralising between people who have preset opinions and will happily ignore the fact that other people can have *gasp* different opinions.

If they force you to get a job (of any kind) once you've been unemployed for year then that's a good thing, surely. Or is being unemployed somehow good, now?

Sure, if you're unable to work etc, that's different. But still.

"Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit. Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990."

So presumably, every single job in the country is filled, if there's that many unemployed.... Surely they could -make- work, somehow?

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

Your response is probably the most sensible, sane and coherent reply that I've seen to Andy's post.

In theory (ie if they actually cared/checked/payed attention etc) the Job Centre in the UK would cut off an awful lot of people's benefits, since there are few people that I know in a state of unemployment who are truthful about their jobsearching. Some make it up entirely.

People have different tolerance standards of what jobs horrify them, as you say, and some just don't want to work.

I suppose we're lucky that once you've been unemployed for a certain amount of time, you don't just get conscripted into the army or council work etc.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

The story is likely a hoax.

[greyisboring.livejournal.com]

The story is garbage. Forced to push leaves about cleaning a park for a euro per hour add unemployment on a fictional made up job, yes, but this is fiction. I'm curious how the Daily Telegraph got hold of this story, which Bild Zeitung reporter pulled their leg.

For a start, sex requires consent, and it's the right of any sex worker to refuse a client. They wouldn't be in the job very long.

On the subject of the Rammstein poster, the DDR hasn't existed for 15 years.