Reasonable terminology

[andrewducker]

[Poll #369263]

Comments

[andrewducker]

I'm aware, by the way, that I may well be 'wrong' in my choice of words. I don't mean to be offensive, but I have no idea what words are generally considered acceptable.

It does amuse the heck out of me that while the general current phrase for the earlier inhabitants of North America is Native Americans, they themselves tend to prefer 'Indian'.

[ladysisyphus.livejournal.com]

...See, I can't answer any of those questions definitively without knowing under which circumstances things are done. There's a difference, for example, between dressing up a white person as a black person for comedic purposes in front of an all-white audience and doing so in front of a non-white audience. The intent matters a lot more than the act.

[cheekbones3.livejournal.com]

I'm under the impression that "coloured people" is a term which is not liked by black people. Also, I will quite happily describe someone as black, but I don't like "blacks" as a group term.

[lilitufire.livejournal.com]

I'm being nit picky, I'd probably say black people - picked up from a black university flatmate. I figured if Sophie was happy with that designation, it worked.

[kimberly-a.livejournal.com]

My experience has been that black people in various different socio-economic groups, different cultural settings, and different age groupings have different preferences for how to refer to themselves. Also, they often have different preferences for how to refer to someone of their own race and how people of other races should refer to them. So the whole issue is a lot more complicated than such simple questions can really explore.

Many of the more intellectual black circles in our neck of the woods prefer "African-American," especially from people of other races. Though "black" is used quite universally, as well, a small minority seem to find this offensive.

It's a bit like trying to dance with someone who doesn't want to lead.

[andrewducker]

Darnit - I forgot "African-American" (although I don't like it as a term myself).

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

British equivalents might be "Afro-Caribbean" or "Black British".

[andrewducker]

I have no problem with people who are 1st generation immigrants being XXX-British, but I guess that I'm just not comfortable conflating ethnicity with origin once people are born here.

Except, I guess, that people brought up in Indian households in the UK will actually feel half Indian and half British.

Although I also emotionally shy away from strong definitions of 'British' on the grounds that I don't actually like cricket very much myself...

[nickys.livejournal.com]

> I don't actually like cricket very much myself...

I think most of the Scottish population would fail the "Tebbit Test" too...

[allorin.livejournal.com]

Well, exactly - which is why your "of African origin" at the start of your post was such baloney.

White people are born in Africa to, you know, as are many other races....

[andrewducker]

Yup.

In which case, how to refer to people of that type?

[allorin.livejournal.com]

Black.

Despite (as in Kimberly's comment) some people wanting to be known as African-American, I have to say I think if they thought about it for a second, they'd realise just how derogatory that is.

As in, you're not American. No, you're that sub-class of American - African-American. I've never liked the sound of that. White American, Black American - at least that way, it's only about a difference in colour.

Personally, I think the 'PC' brigade does far more harm than good, and continues to highlight 'causes' as somehow being 'causes', instead of simply saying - "They're a person, like you or me."

I'm sure I ranted about this in my journal a while back....

[kimberly-a.livejournal.com]

I find it awkward and unnecessarily complicated, but since it isn't *my* descriptor, I don't feel I'm in any position to judge.

I get offended when people refer to a short person as a "midget" or "munchkin" or any other such belittling (ha ha) term.

I also get offended by many terms used to describe people who are fat by society's standards.

I think we all have our things we're sensitive about. Race -- particularly for blacks who were victims of slavery for so many generations because of the color of their skin -- is one that often cuts deeper than others. Referring to a black man by a term that denotes his skin color raises very complicated issues of the history of slavery and the inequal relationship to whites. I'm not at all surprised that the issue is heated.

[derumi.livejournal.com]

Black Canadians hate that term, too.

[wolflady26.livejournal.com]

Can you define for me a person who is not ethnic?

[andrewducker]

Oh, I agree.

[wolflady26.livejournal.com]

Of all choices, I like "black" best. Admittedly, there are a wide variety of skin tones, many of which do not fall under the color "black", but then again, I've seen only a few people whose skin tone was honestly "white", but that term seems to be commonly accepted.

Also, it has the advantage of being a description and not a race. Because really, there are not all that many situations where categorizing someone by their race is acceptable to me, whereas describing someone by their skin color should be as natural as describing them by their size, or hair or eye color. The two are sadly often mixed together, though.

[elwe.livejournal.com]

I am comfortable saying "black people" but a little uncomfortable with "blacks". I don't know why.

Of all you mention

[sibelian.livejournal.com]

I kind of think "non-whites" is almost as offensive as "nigger".

Re: Of all you mention

[andrewducker]

I agree.

Re: Of all you mention

[derumi.livejournal.com]

Smacks of apartheidism. So does "coloured".

Re: Of all you mention

[kimberly-a.livejournal.com]

Brings to mind the Jim Crow (http://www.jimcrowhistory.org/home.htm) laws, for me.

[derumi.livejournal.com]

The first two would depend on what's going on. If it's a comedy, and blacks are precluded from appearing in film... Well, it'd be borderline. And it seems like the recent use of making men up like women is to make fun of transvestites and MtFs.

Ethnic people sound like what KKK members might call the Irish. Negro is just an archaic term, and has been coloured (err) with bad connotations in some people's view. I'm surprised that the variant word wasn't listed - some people like to use it as a pet word for their peers, but won't allow others to use that word. Self-denigration coupled with racism, in my opinion.

And yeah, I, too, have noticed that Amerinds/Native Americans prefer to use the word Indian instead. So do Indians. Which makes it confusing. And you can't use West Indian, you'd be talking about Jamaicans and Haitians.

[imaget.livejournal.com]

Growing up in my melting-pot family, using the word Negro was okay, and I don't think that it has devolved into an archaism quite yet, but the other "N" word that ended in an "r" was, and still is considered extremely taboo, and something that didn't come out of the mouths of anybody who was intelligent.

[derumi.livejournal.com]

In my high school years, I got along pretty well with blacks (as a strongly bi-cultural asiatic/white boy, the white kids tended to patronize and pick on me), but I resented the fact they could use N****r as a term of endearment for each other but I wasn't allowed to use it myself (I mean, hey, I liked them - the black captains always picked me first for PE basketball - I always passed to someone who could shoot). Actually, I didn't resent it then like I do now, back then, it completely bewildered me. For that matter, my godfather would never let anyone in his family refer to themselves as "African-Americans", only as blacks or Americans. He noted that their Costa-Rican relatives were black, but certainly not American (or planning on sailing back to Africa).

Hurt my family like hell when most of his relatives cold-shouldered them at his funeral.

[bohemiancoast.livejournal.com]

"black people" seems to be the standard path of least offense in London. However, it's not a phrase I tend to use, either professionally (where it's too inclusive for some of the concepts we need to talk about, and nothing like inclusive enough for others) or personally (where I rarely find occasion to refer to people in clumps).

Er, didn't answer the one about drag and blackface because it's all a bit complicated. Yes, the Black and White Minstrel Show is offensive. No, Widow Twanky isn't, and neither are the female characters in the League of Gentlemen. Oh, I mean, they are offensive, but not in that way. It sort of depends on the context.

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

I thought that film looked pretty crap too.

I liked the b3ta (or maybe somethingawful) where they made up titles for films based purely on the poster. The one for -that- film was "Holy buggery! What's with their faces?" or something similar...

[andrewducker]

Which film?

Ooooh - the Wayans one?

Believe it or not, I was thinking of Little Britain...

[imaget.livejournal.com]

I refused to see the movie "White Chicks", just because I don't appreciate that kind of back-handed comedy. If it were turned around and two white guys were employing cliches and stereotypes to portray themselves as black women, people would be up in arms.

[darkoshi]

Regarding offensiveness, it depends greatly on context.

[derumi.livejournal.com]

I forgot to mention, since I did tag "other"...

Ultimately, I like calling them Perry, Dwight, Desiree, Grace, Jason, David, Chris, Al, James, etc. Personal names are so much nicer.

Sticks and Stones

[red-cloud.livejournal.com]

Intent is everything, I think.

If one sets out to offend then I think you'd be pretty successful whichever term is used. On the other hand, hugely perjorative terms -- in just about any other context -- can be used between close friends with impunity. The same goes for the dressing-up. Intent is hugely important.

Being offensive through ignorance, though, is almost as bad as deliberately setting out to offend.

Considering how funny I think this poll is,

[imaget.livejournal.com]

I can't believe how difficult it was for me to put in a simple reply here. :) I am young American woman, of Irish, Native American, and African descent with what I describe as a cinnamon touched cocoa complection, and crazy, curly, kinky hair. I choose to define myself racially by the term Black for my own reasons.

Here's a quote from a favorite song about the subject:
Before I am black, before I am woman, before I am short, before I am young, before I am African, I am human. Because I am black, because I am woman, because I am short, because I am young, because I am African,
I am human.
By Dionne Farris from her song "Human"

Several of the terms that I saw listed in your poll I would freely use to describe myself, some of my friends, or my family, but I would feel very uncomfortable having to hear come out of the mouth of someone who I don't consider to be black. That's the truth of it plain and simple. I don't think that it is necessarily right or wrong, it's just the way I feel about the subject.

Leave it to Andrew of all my LJ buddies, to bring up a topic that is just sooo uncomfortable to talk about. With most of my friends, and it pains me to admit this, I would prefer not to talk about race and all of its possible attendant modifiers (i.e. prejudice, designation, discrimination, reparations) in mixed company, because it's not something our society teaches us to be casual about. One has to walk such a fine line so as not to end up being hurt or hurtful.

Cheers to greater communicaton, and stepping out of your comfort zones.