How not to want vengeance
May. 13th, 2002 10:10 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
andrewduckerI have this terrible habit of engaging in conversation with people on Livejournal and then deciding that what I'm about to say/have just said belongs on my journal, so that more people can worship at the feet of the glory that is Andy.
Ahem. Anyway, I was chatting to Gordon about vengeance.
He said that most people when they say they want justice mean vengeance. And I was adding (in my own inimitable, must make everything about me if at all possible) that I didn't want vengeance. And he pointed out that I didn't really want justice either. I can certainly see that I only want some forms of justice. I certainly don't necessarily want justice as in "A fair punishment for the crime", because I don't believe that punishment is necessarily the best answer to crime.
(You'll have noticed that I keep using the word necessarily. It's not just because I can't think of a better word, but also because I'm equivocating here. The best answer to crime is something that isn't studied enough because, as Gordon has pointed out before, people don't want justice or what's "right", they want vengeance.)
Anyway, Gordon said that not wanting vengeance was probably just me, and he didn't know how not want to want vengeance (which I can entirely understand. Revenge makes people feel great. Just look at the amount of fiction based around revenge stories), so without any further ado (we've had quite enough ado already) is my guide to not wanting vengeance:
1) Stop believing in free will. It's a silly idea at best, and after thinking about it for a few years I realised that I have no idea what it might even mean any more.
2) Having given up on free will, realise that people are as responsible for their acts as a cyclone or an earthquake or a lightning strike or a tsunami. This isn't to say that you can't bear in mind likely actions and attempt to avoid them or change them, but to hold people responsible for the mechanical actions caused by genetics and circumstance seems ridiculous. They can't help it any more than any other mechanical system.
3) Start thinking about prevention rather than punishment. Now, you wouldn't punish a river to stop your house being flooded a second time, would you? You'd try to work out the best way to make it not flood again, whether that was redirecting it, or moving to a less floodable area, or flood calming techniques. Sure, it might be curable with a few tons of TNT, but even then, you're engaging in prevention rather than punishment.
4) To make yourself feel better about this, go and read some of the existing statistics on what actually prevents recidivism. Notice that generally speaking, the best way to lower crime rates and general nastiness is in fact to make people happier and richer. Job creation schemes, training, education and free speech are all things which lower violence, theft and all sorts of other nastiness. Punishment, on the other hand, seems to have very little effect.
Ahem. Anyway, I was chatting to Gordon about vengeance.
He said that most people when they say they want justice mean vengeance. And I was adding (in my own inimitable, must make everything about me if at all possible) that I didn't want vengeance. And he pointed out that I didn't really want justice either. I can certainly see that I only want some forms of justice. I certainly don't necessarily want justice as in "A fair punishment for the crime", because I don't believe that punishment is necessarily the best answer to crime.
(You'll have noticed that I keep using the word necessarily. It's not just because I can't think of a better word, but also because I'm equivocating here. The best answer to crime is something that isn't studied enough because, as Gordon has pointed out before, people don't want justice or what's "right", they want vengeance.)
Anyway, Gordon said that not wanting vengeance was probably just me, and he didn't know how not want to want vengeance (which I can entirely understand. Revenge makes people feel great. Just look at the amount of fiction based around revenge stories), so without any further ado (we've had quite enough ado already) is my guide to not wanting vengeance:
1) Stop believing in free will. It's a silly idea at best, and after thinking about it for a few years I realised that I have no idea what it might even mean any more.
2) Having given up on free will, realise that people are as responsible for their acts as a cyclone or an earthquake or a lightning strike or a tsunami. This isn't to say that you can't bear in mind likely actions and attempt to avoid them or change them, but to hold people responsible for the mechanical actions caused by genetics and circumstance seems ridiculous. They can't help it any more than any other mechanical system.
3) Start thinking about prevention rather than punishment. Now, you wouldn't punish a river to stop your house being flooded a second time, would you? You'd try to work out the best way to make it not flood again, whether that was redirecting it, or moving to a less floodable area, or flood calming techniques. Sure, it might be curable with a few tons of TNT, but even then, you're engaging in prevention rather than punishment.
4) To make yourself feel better about this, go and read some of the existing statistics on what actually prevents recidivism. Notice that generally speaking, the best way to lower crime rates and general nastiness is in fact to make people happier and richer. Job creation schemes, training, education and free speech are all things which lower violence, theft and all sorts of other nastiness. Punishment, on the other hand, seems to have very little effect.
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no subject
Date: 2002-05-13 02:19 pm (UTC)Thanks
Date: 2002-05-14 08:21 am (UTC)Re: Thanks
Date: 2002-05-14 12:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-05-14 12:56 am (UTC)That said you never replied to my mail about free will :P
I also think you're focusing on punishment.
To clarify my earlier point Punishment is about/for vengeance. I'm pretty sure a just system wouldn't include punishment. Y'know like the Plato thing where you show people why what they did was wrong and they actually believe it? Or your earlier post about cats and dogs. Our system works like with the cats, we know that certain stuff pisses the system off, but rather than seeing it as wrong we see that it's best to avoid being caught, and then the system shoves us off the table.
no subject
Date: 2002-05-14 10:56 am (UTC)is a different question to
Why do people want Vengeance.
It's an instinctual thing, maybe from Biblical times, in part, and from a basic self defence mechanism, I guess. If someone hurts you, hurt them back, and add an extra kick to the nutts for good measure. That way they see how much what they're doing hurts. And if it comes down to a tit for tat slap fight, you're bound to win, since you've already kicked them in the nuts.
Justice would be an eye for an eye
Vengeance is when you gouge the guys eye out, tell him that's you all sorted, and as he's walking off, you run up behind him and kick him in the nads. (yes, it can be done, if you hook the foot)
Adam
Yeah
Date: 2002-05-14 11:09 am (UTC)I don't want vengeance, but I understand why it exists - hating the person who did bad things to you is a great way to make sure you never trust them again, and that they learn not to piss you off again because you've broken their face. I can see this would be an evolutionarily stable strategy. I just don't like it, or go along with it.
But then, as I said to Gordon, most people don't seem to have my capacity for niceness.
Re: Yeah
Date: 2002-05-15 03:59 am (UTC)I do. And despite this mind warping knowledge, I still dont' want vengeance for the petty crimes they inflict on me daily.
I still stand by my view that the human race is pointless, and destructive, and should be wiped out. But that's an overview sort of a thing, and something I don't imagine I'll ever get close to acheiving. I mean, there's no point in me taking an axe, and killing as many people as I could. I'd never depopulate the world fast enough, even if I no one tried to stop me.
I suppose the better way of doing things would be to form a corporation that controlls the majority of the food production capacity in the USA, and Europe, and then at a critical moment, burn the fields, and inject the animals with cyanide, or something. Starve the whole world. ALL of it. But that's still just gonna result in an appocalypse, which although it's pretty cool, it's not something I'd like to cause....
God, I'm babbling now...
Anyway, Vengeance bad.
Sorry
Adam
Re: Yeah
Date: 2002-05-15 04:05 am (UTC)And I agree that pretty much everyone has the capacity for great nastiness. They also have the capacity for great goodness too. Frequently the same people too.
Re: Yeah
Good Omens?
Date: 2002-05-16 05:48 am (UTC)What am I paraphrasing?
Re: Good Omens?
Date: 2002-05-16 05:57 am (UTC)there's a bit about how humans can be more benevolent than angels and more malevolent than demons and it often being the same person. I cant remember the exact quote.
a quick google search turned up this but it's not there.
Re: Good Omens?
Date: 2002-05-16 06:00 am (UTC)