Interesting Links for 23-10-2023

[andrewducker]

1. You are not, in fact, the granddaughter of the witches they couldn't burn

(tags:witchcraft heresy history women )

2. The Great Male Renunciation

(tags:men clothing history )

3. Exposed: Secret report on UK modern slavery the Home Office tried to cover up

(tags:racism UK work slavery OhForFucksSake )

4. A 3D reconstruction of Tenochtitlan, the capital of the Aztec empire.

(tags:SouthAmerica 3d )

Comments

[simont]

#1: this was an interesting rant even without having already seen the T-shirts it was responding to. But the question it mostly raised in my mind was: I'm sure the author is correct that alleged witches were hanged whereas alleged heretics were burned at the stake, but how did it get to be such a popular meme that witches were burned?

Off the top of my head I can think of references to it in Good Omens (the Them playing at witchfinders, ducking someone in a pond, and then reasoning that she was too soggy to burn), and in Monty Python and the Holy Grail (in the "she turned me into a newt – I got better" bit).

That suggests a theory in which comedy writers are more interested in being funny than in getting their facts straight, on the not totally unreasonable grounds that only one of those is their job; and then lots of people remember the funny comedy sketches better than the detailed history, for equally obvious reasons. That seems at least superficially plausible, but I have no idea if it's true or not.

[andrewducker]

Witches were actually burned in Scotland. And in continental Europe. There are a fair number of woodcuts of the latter, which probably helped spread the idea.

[sigmonster]

Thomas and Janet Weir were made famous in the 19th and 20th century by R L Stevenson and then William Roughead, which may have something to do with it? (Thomas Weir was burnt.)

And I agree that tonnes of the radio, film, tv narratives blend in, or are entirely based on, traditions from outside the anglosphere, so talking only about the England and Wales history is more than a bit missing the point.

[cmcmck]

Although I am, in fact, the 14 x great granddaughter of Elizabeth Southerns (aka Demdike) one of those on trial at the Infamous Pendle witch trials.

She died in prison before sentence could be carried out.

As with most cases in England she would not have burned, but hanged.

[channelpenguin]

1. Logical
2. A pity (but thank goodness we have always had at least some rebel groups since)
3. Abhorrent. Inevitable. Probably one of the main aims of Brexit (for certain people)
4. Stunning!

[greenwoodside]

Two has puzzled me for some time. There are so many possible explanations, but not much evidence afaik.

1. Rise to power of the (upper) middle classes who have to work for their living, albeit not manually, and want to differentiate themselves from the aristos.

2.Reaction to colonialism. No possible way to beat the Maharajas in the dress stakes, so play a different game. Guess it would also feed into the 'white man's burden' kind of mythology: oh, the natives with all their elaborate (feminine) clothes, they need practical people in black coats to govern them.

Though of course for much of (all of?) the nineteenth century, British soldiers would have worn red.

I remember once coaxing my ex into wearing a muted dark blue jumper, which represented a radical change from his usual black jeans/t-shirts/jackets.

When I lived for about nine months in China, one of the many notable differences was the willingness of adults, men (and women too to a greater extent than in Britain), to wear bright colours -- though not so much in a professional context for men.

Anyway, hope the convention explodes soon.

[andrewducker]

I do think that there's definitely an "I work for a living" effect going on here. In much the same way that a lot of the time short hair came from utility, and military service, and not having it meant you hadn't done those things.

[nancylebov]

There's also a possibility that the French Revolution made rich people nervous about extreme ostentation.

It might be a factor that practical clothing is more comfortable.

[greenwoodside]

There's also a possibility that the French Revolution made rich people nervous about extreme ostentation.

Yes, definitely!

Not sure re the comfort factor. Could depend a lot on the era/location, I guess. I remember my Dad talking about the starched shirts he had to wear as a boy in the forties. On the other hand, Walter Raleigh's dress in his portraits looks unbearable. But jump back a couple of generations and Henry VII's thing for fur-edged gowns looks rather cosy.