andrewducker: (Default)
[personal profile] andrewducker

Date: 2018-07-24 11:29 am (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (seven legged spider)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
I'm not sure that "Britain only finished paying off slave owners in 2015" is an accurate description of what's going on there.

In fact, I'd argue that it falls in to a dangerous rhetorical trap that e.g. the Tories use to reduce the size of the state.

Firstly, and pedantically, Britain paid off the slave owners in 1833. The debt instrument used to make those payments was not paid off until 2015.

Secondly, government debt doesn't work like household debt. The state is a) a much larger part of the economy than a household, b) has am impact on fiscal policy, c) has an impact on monetary policy and d) has a policy impact on long-term growth rates.

Thirdly, government debt is not hypotheced. The debt instrument is different from the original and current requirement to hold the debt.

Fourthly, government debt represents spending today but interest payments tomorrow. The interest payments tomorrow represent taxation tomorrow. This taxation comes out of the growth of the economy. So if the government can borrow at 2% and the economy grows at 2.5% because of the spending the government made with the debt then there is basically free money. It's the magic money tree that Teressa May is so sceptical about.


The debt issued to make the cash payments isn't slave holder related debt - it's just general government debt. For example, the government could have paid off the "slave holder" debt in 1914 but decided to fight a war instead. Rather than pay off the" slave holder" debt paying (say) 2% interest and borrowing to fight the way at, say, 4% the Treasury decided to roll over the "slave holder" debt. Thus the total interest payable, and the tax required to service the interest is lower overall.

If you or I buy a house it makes sense to say that it took us 25 years to pay off the mortgage. We have one asset, one debt, one stream of income and discrete and finite amount of time to use that income to purchase goods and services. I'm not sure you can do the same with government debt.

If interest rates had dropped to 0.25% in 1835 and the government had called in all outstanding debt and re-issued it all at 0.25% would we say that it only taken the government 2 year to pay off the slave holders?

The danger in thinking and talking about government debt as if were household debt is that it buys in to the narrative of the Chancellor as a prudent housewife and that reducing government spending is always, all other things being equal a good idea. That's contrary to Keynesian economics and the need for counter-cyclical government spending. It's how we ended up with the Geddes Axe and Osborne's "long-term economic plan" which both reduced the size of the state, increased the political power of the rich and lengthened and deepened the real economic impact of the financial crisis that they followed.

Date: 2018-07-24 12:15 pm (UTC)
channelpenguin: (Default)
From: [personal profile] channelpenguin
thank you for that! It is the clearest explanation of why governments can (and should) sensibly borrow that I have yet seen.

Date: 2018-07-24 02:43 pm (UTC)
drplokta: (Default)
From: [personal profile] drplokta
Furthermore, the article says that the sum paid in compensation was so large that it took that amount of time to pay it off, which is ridiculous. All that happened was that long-term interest rates by 2015 had fallen enough that it was cheaper for the government to pay off and terminate three centuries worth of perpetual bonds than it was to keep paying the interest on them.

Date: 2018-07-24 03:06 pm (UTC)
danieldwilliam: (Default)
From: [personal profile] danieldwilliam
Which is happening a lot at the moment. UK Government borrowing rates have never been so low. The Treasury is busy cancelling as much outstanding debt as it can and replacing it with newly issued debt paying interest at 0.5%. Quite a lot of that date is very long dated. One of the curious side effects of the financial crash is that UK borrowing costs are likely to fall once we finally emerge from the economic slow down caused by the fniancial crash and Brexit.

Date: 2018-07-24 06:25 pm (UTC)
cmcmck: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cmcmck
As one who left school at fifteen unqualified having loathed the place but went on to have several sets of letters after my name, that last one makes a lot of sense- it just didn't suit my way of learning at all!

Date: 2018-07-25 12:15 am (UTC)
calimac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] calimac
So is the Onion review of Mama Mia supposed to be blank? Is that what's "perfect" about it? I don't know if I'm looking at a joke too subtle for me to get or a display problem on my computer.

Date: 2018-07-25 01:28 am (UTC)
snippy: Lego me holding book (Default)
From: [personal profile] snippy
It's a video at the Onion's website; probably if you go to their website you can find it (the link worked for me).

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