Battle of the introverts

[andrewducker]

When I first met Jane I told her that I was introverted. And about two weeks later she laughed at me, pointing out how many friends I have, and how much I socialise.

Last night, when I couldn't sleep at 5am, I did a Myers-Briggs test* (to check that I was still INTP - I still am). And then this morning I got her to do it too.

Turns out that I'm 61% introvert/39% extrovert. And she's 94% introvert/6% extrovert. So to her, I look all the same as those extroverted people who leave the house, and talk to other people. And to me she looks like a tiny dot, fleeing into the introverted distance.

Preempting some of the comments - if you want to claim that MBTI is just a horoscope then you'll have to explain its correlation with the Big Five.

Comments

[myka]

I used to be surprised when I met people more introverted than me (like 2 of my lodgers were). But even though I still test as INTJ the percentages seem to get less extreme as time goes on --- just got 58% introverted on this one

[andrewducker]

It's fascinating. Some people seem to get more extreme with age (as the become more comfortable just saying "No, I want to stay in by myself") and some get more moderate (as they become comfortable around others). Either way it seem like people become more comfortable being themselves. Mostly.

[mountainkiss]

I'd advise being sceptical about the tests (both on line and official) independently of whether or not you find the Jungian model valuable. (Full disclosure: I have been working with clients using it for over twenty years.)

Introversion does vary in intensity and clarity of preference, but also comes in different forms. An interesting enquiry would be about the nature of the interactions you have with your extraordinarily wide network. Do you tend towards breadth or depth? Does smalltalk feel natural to you or pointless? Looking at the nature of the interactions, as well as their range and frequency, can help you to make sense of this. It's also worth reconnecting to the fundamentals of orientation and energy. Do you makes sense of yourself in terms of others or others in terms of yourself? And, in the end, do you go to people to get energy after being with yourself, or to yourself to get energy after being with people?

[mountainkiss]

Addendum: initial comment not meant to challenge *your* preference or result. It's just that it should be a starting point for your thinking, not the finish. If one (for example) tested as INTJ but identified strongly with the descriptors of INTP, it makes more sense to work with INTP than to assume INTJ because test.

[momentsmusicaux]

And introversion varies over time, I find.

For example, I am stumped by the very first question:

> You find it difficult to introduce yourself to other people.

That depends entirely on my mood and state of mind and the circumstances. Sometimes, I find it easy. Sometimes I find it crushingly awkward. I've been at events where I am quite happy to turn around to someone in the lunch queue and say hello and start chatting. I have also been to things where the same people are week in week out, and not felt able to open a conversation until months have passed and there is an opportunity that doesn't make me feel too awkward.

[mountainkiss]

That's exactly why I recommend not taking the questionnaire too seriously. It's a data point. So too is your experience of being around people, both energising and draining - what is the balance between the two? So are your reflections on the borderlines between introversion and shyness. So are your thoughts on other aspects of the definition, such as whether you tend towards breadth or depth, or how interesting the world of events and things is to you compared with the world of thoughts and sensations and feelings, or whether you go inside or outside yourself first when faced with new information or challenge, or other things too. Not everyone can be bothered with this, but if you (one, not specifically you) want it to be useful for you and support you in knowing yourself better and understanding differences with others, the best way is to work through it on your own account until you're satisfied with your own conclusion.

[marrog]

Agreed about reading the descriptions and checking them against your more marginal characteristics. There's no question I'm E, N and P, in any test, but my T/F is super marginal (yesterday it was 51:49 F:T). I usually come out ENFP, but not always. There's no question that I'm close to being ENTP, but I have a core of idealism and a belief in compassion - even though I sometimes struggle to show it - that means I will always identify more closely as ENFP, no matter how argumentative and analytical I can be at times.

[marrog]

(That as an 18 year old leaving high school I tested - and identified with - INTJ is testament to just how unhappy and far from myself I was during my teens.)

[mountainkiss]

That makes sense. if you're ENXP then your dominant function is the perceiving function (intuition) anyway, so the difference between ENFP and ENTP is less than it would be for ENFJ / ENTJ when it would be the judging function (thinking or feeling).

[zotz]

A correlation with the big five doesn't mean it isn't discarding a lot of information, or is using it in a good way. And given that there are other free tests available that don't share its faults, why not use them instead?

[andrewducker]

Good question.

Any suggestions?

[zotz]

Well, you could have a look here.

[andrewducker]

You left off the http:// bit (I think).

Meant to be this I think. Although that page isn't loading for me either.

However! I more meant "Any suggestions as to why MBTI continues to be popular despite lack of rigorous scientific support?"

[zotz]

Yes, that's what happened. Appropriately enough given that we're discussing poor design decisions, that's because Vivaldi doesn't show that part in the address box.

Why is it popular? It's marketed to the public in a way that other tests aren't, and the suggested personality types are both generally flattering and subject to the Barnum effect.

[snippy]

Thank you for the link to the IPIP test, I found it illuminating to take the test and review the results.

[mountainkiss]

I can't make either of the pages load.

I'd argue that it's popular because it's founded on a model that's easy to understand, feels generalisable / recognisable in terms of every day experience, and allows people to realise genuinely useful benefits in terms of their understanding of themselves and how they are like and different from others. That doesn't mean that everything about the model is perfect, but it gets people enough value to be worth its imperfections and hence it has staying power. The questionnaire is far from perfect but it is close enough to the model enough times to be useful.

[marrog]

I'd agree with this. It seems to help folk to relate to one another and to themselves. It's talking about pretty basic personality traits that help you think about your own personality when you read about them, and it focuses on the practical applications of the outcomes - that is, to help you work and play well with others with different personalities from you. Hard to see what's wrong with that.

[mountainkiss]

I think that's exactly right. The problems come, as always, when people misuse it: equating the questionnaire automatically with type rather than allowing people's understanding of themselves to have validity, or saying "all INTPS are...", or drawing inference beyond what the theory would support. Et cetera.

[andrewducker]

Yeah, I think it does a better job of telling a story than many other systems do. Each of the types feels like a character, someone you can either feel affinity for or not.

Whereas giving people their Big Five scores gives you some numbers, but it's too abstract for most to feel attached to it.

[randomdreams]

I have to say that both from how you talk and the things you describe yourself doing, I would never have characterized you as introverted.

[andrewducker]

You don't see me spend two hours enjoying something and then having to come home and spend a few hours in quietly to recover energy from it.

I love company, and people. But it wears me out quickly.

[annie_r]

Many of us more extreme introverts just don't post about all those evenings spent quietly home alone, so yeah, you do appear to be very social and comfortable with it.

[andrewducker]

Yeah, I'm not extreme :-)

But I'm not an extravert either. I know some of those, and I just don't have that in me.

[birguslatro]

From my view of you here, based entirely on your posts, I'd got the feeling you had to work at your socializing. That it's not something you just naturally do.

Anyway, in a few months, for a few years, you'll be too tired and time-poor to go out much at all, so that'll be a relief! :)

[calimac]

Absolutely. It's all relative.

Which is why I find the test literally impossible to take. There's not a question on it to which my answer isn't one of "Compared to what?" or "Depends what you mean by that" or "Sometimes one, sometimes the other."

I'm introverted. I know that without the stupid test. When I was young, and hadn't heard of introversion, I thought I was shy. Then I met genuinely shy people, and hearing what they went through realized that no, that's not me at all. But before that, I would have answered "yes" to the question, "Are you shy?" That experience taught me to be wary of stupid tests like this.

[njj4]

I recently read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking by Susan Cain, and found it fascinating. In particular, it helped explain a lot about the way I react to social situations.

[andrewducker]

Interesting. I'll take a look - thanks!

[agoodwinsmith]

I too, based on this journal alone, would never have thought of you as introverted - you talk to people! You meet people in groups! Often! You genuinely seem to thrive on spending time with others! Argh!

Regarding the popularity of the test: it is used by a lot of human resources departments as a team building tool. It is meant to only be administered by a qualified individual, but even when this is the case, the results are seldom used only by the qualified individual. It is quick and reasonably inexpensive to use, and gives teams a starting point for discussion of how to work together.

My sense (from having experienced its use in several corporate situations) is that it is a tool that extraverts like: either because it confirms their natural leadership skills, or because it remind them that their team members aren't duplicates of themselves.

Living in Canada, we're often measuring ourselves against Americans because we can usually only get American-based textbooks and materials. So, everything is prefaced by "remember that these are American statistics". One of the teams I belonged to spent some time comparing the percentages of the Myers Briggs types by country, and the USA has a much higher percentage of all the extravert types. So, if these personality types were innate, there should be less variation, and thus it is likely that these are personality tendencies, which environment can nurture selectively.

Also: self-reporting. Canadians take pride in being calm and a little reserved; Americans take pride in being friendly and gregarious. So my work answers will be different from my personal answers.

And context: in my family, my Dad's family is a bunch of raving ego-maniacs (confident friendly people), and with them I am a vanishing dot of introversion; but my Mom's family is a bunch of edge-dwelling mice (reserved calm people), and with them I am a raving ego-maniac. :)

And so: based on who I know and who I hang out with, you are one of the more extraverted people I know. :)

PS - poor speller check extravert and extrovert, and has decided to stick with extravert, but there's this:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-difference-between-extraversion-and-extroversion/

[andrewducker]

You don't see me spend two hours enjoying something and then having to come home and spend a few hours in quietly to recover energy from it.

I love company, and people. But it wears me out quickly.

[snippy]

Yes this. I am very social! I like to talk to people, I like parties, I like group activities. I'm not shy. But I am exhausted at the end, overwhelmed and overstimulated if I go past my limits (I actually have timed limits, one for new people and one for longtime friends), and I need to be alone in a quiet room for several hours to recover after being the life of the party.

[agoodwinsmith]

I find the thought of being in groups of people larger than four (counting me) to be exhausting. Ugh.

[yalovetz]

I'm a fairly extreme introvert. I've had a couple of work training exercises in my two most recent workplaces based on personality tests that measure introversion/extroversion. Both were in workplaces that probably select for introversion (statisticians, librarians) and in both I tested as one of the most introverted people in the room. And this was based on my 'work personality', which involves a fair bit of public speaking and generally being quite outspoken and personable. Like someone said above, I'm quite confident, not at all shy, and get lots of feedback that I'm very adept at handling really quite tricky interpersonal interactions and social situations. But I would really rather hole up on my own and hermit most of the time.

[jack]

Hah. Yes, that's interesting.

I think if I do any personality tests I need someone to help me. I always end up with questions where I'm like, "I'm not sure if the amount I do that is a lot" or "I do that, but only because I try really hard to force myself to" or "I technically do that, but I think I'm bad at the thing that it represents for most people" etc etc.

I could maybe cope with one that was a lot more specific.

I've talked before about thoughts about introversion, and different axes I tend to lump under that heading. For myself, I feel like do okay-ish at normal social stuff. But I tend to get bored of it quickly if I'm not really engaged. And even positive social interaction, I need a reasonable break from. And even people I'm really close to, I need *some* break from. I tend to use Liv as my model extrovert, and she seems to exhibit all those same tendencies, but with the limits in quite different places.