Date: 2011-04-28 12:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com
What I find genuinely bizarre about the aircraft carriers is that apparently the government are in the regular habit of signing contracts with private companies in which they are allowed to run over budget as much as they please, and the government will happily pay.

This seems the exact opposite of the way every other contract in the world works. If somebody says they will deliver 'x' for 'y', then you pay 'y', and its their job to make sure they can still make a profit at it.

Date: 2011-04-28 08:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com
Given the original spec seemed to call for an aircraft carrier that wasn't going to be able to handle any currently developed airplanes, I suppose it was rather inevitable that the designs would have to be changed.

We've made a truly horrible mistake getting rid of the Harriers.

Date: 2011-04-28 03:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] philmophlegm.livejournal.com
Not quite. Most long-term contracts in the construction and heavy engineering sectors work like this. What happens is that company A commissions company B to make something big (let's say an oil pipeline, since that's what one of my former clients used to make). At various stages throughout the project, company B will make 'claims' to recover some of their cost overruns. These claims will be negotiated between the two companies. Some will be accepted without quibble (changes in scope etc), some will be argued over and settled with a compromise (perhaps extra labour costs due to weather delays in the North Sea) and some will be refused pretty much straight away.

Nobody ever spares a thought for how much extra hassle this creates for the auditors...


What I don't understand about defence procurement in this country is how consistently bad it is. I mean every single large defence project is late and costs more. My suspicion is MoD incompetence (at least compared to rather clever industry negotiators). I'd like to see a good Defence Secretary sort it out.

Date: 2011-04-28 04:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andrewhickey.livejournal.com
That's still better than the IT projects - they come in late and over-budget *and don't work*...

Date: 2011-04-28 08:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com
I used to know the guy who ran a company that did one of those late over budget pieces of IT for the NHS.

His daddy is a close personal friend of several major Tory ex-ministers, well connected. This is how his sons company got the contract in the first place.

And the company consisted of, the Owner, a managing director, a corporate director, 4 project managers, and 1, yes, 1 programmer.

Date: 2011-04-28 08:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andrewhickey.livejournal.com
Having done contract IT work for the government - albeit local government rather than national - I am not even slightly surprised. And having used the NHS' IT systems I'm frankly surprised a programmer was ever allowed near the things - I thought they were just manifestations of pure entropy.

Date: 2011-04-28 08:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com
The problem seemed to be... well. Several things.

1) The one programmer wasn't very good. But none of his superiors knew he wasn't very good. Because nobody else in the company even really knew how to switch a PC on.

2) The management team spent a lot of time flying down to London for high level meetings with civil servants, and would come back with extensive lists of things that needed to be implemented, would sit down with the programmer, and yell at him when he said this would likely take months of work.

3) They were just contracted to do one small part of the overall NHS IT system, and it was supposed to interlock with the other small bits being developed by other IT firms, but none of the other firms ever spoke to each other to discuss how they would actually integrate their systems.

And they got paid millions. Most of which went into opening a big new office suite in Edinburgh because the management didn't have enough office space. And during this move, their one programmer finally quit.

I believe they carried on for another year or two on the project, without any actual development being done because they didn't hire any more programmers.

It was truly epic fail.

Date: 2011-04-28 08:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andrewhickey.livejournal.com
That sounds exactly like the company I worked for, CompuWeb, which had a staff of approximately thirteen, of whom three were in any way technical. The company went bankrupt due to incompetence on the part of its founder, who bailed and left its debts behind and now runs an IT consulting firm with a whole three employees - the owner, a 'technical account manager' and a 'director: strategic projects'.

Date: 2011-04-28 09:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com
Yeah, this is endemic across the whole industry isn't it? A bunch of crooks and con-men.

The government really desperately need to stop shelling out millions upon millions of pounds for IT projects that a couple of smart teenagers could complete in a week or two.

Date: 2011-04-28 05:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com
I feel it might go beyond incompetence. The number of people who leave the MoD and walk right into very highly paid 'consultancy' jobs in the defence companies is more than a little bit suspicious.

Date: 2011-04-28 09:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] errolwi.livejournal.com
Ask Boeing how that works in practice with fixed-price-per-unit supply contracts for 787 components.

Date: 2011-04-28 02:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bart-calendar.livejournal.com
You know, it's strange. I was almost certain their was a movie version of Stranger In A Strange Land with David Bowie in it. But, checking IMDB, apparently not. I wonder how I got that in my head.

Date: 2011-04-28 04:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hravan.livejournal.com
Youre making awfully good sense.

Date: 2011-04-28 04:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bart-calendar.livejournal.com
Does this film exist or am I just having brain farts as I get old?

possibly both

Date: 2011-04-28 04:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hravan.livejournal.com
why destroy the illusion? itg worked for gaiman

Date: 2011-04-28 04:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andrewhickey.livejournal.com
You're probably thinking of The Man Who Fell To Earth, which is kinda-sorta-a little bit like Stranger.

Date: 2011-04-28 04:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bart-calendar.livejournal.com
Gotcha.

Thanks! It's been bugging me all day!

Date: 2011-04-28 04:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nancylebov.livejournal.com
If there's such a thing as reliable empathy testing, I recommend it for administrators in the caring professions.

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