I like this

[andrewducker]

In every pairwise conversation there are 6 people:

1. Alice

2. Bob

3. Who Alice thinks she is.

4. Who Bob thinks he is.

5. Who Bob thinks Alice is

6. Who Alice things Bob is.

From this discussion of how geeks need to stop treating people badly.

Comments

[andrewhickey.livejournal.com]

I'd argue there's actually only four - there's no need to postulate an "Alice" and "Bob", just the last four.

[andrewducker]

Naaah, there's always the reactions from the bits of you that neither of you knew existed.

[andrewhickey.livejournal.com]

Good point

[joexnz.livejournal.com]

its a wonder we ever get anywhere really

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

The sort of nastiness being criticized in the link isn't limited to geeks.

[dpolicar]

...not to mention that each of those is a complex superposition of states. For example, who I think I am when I just got home from work, is meaningfully different from who I think I am when I just got off the phone with my mom, or just finished reading about the earthquake in Japan, or am about to go run a rehearsal for Equus, or etc.

...and not to mention that there are also third-order effects: who Bob thinks Alice thinks he is. I react differently to someone who I believe admires me than to someone I believe hates me, even if I think basically the same things about them otherwise.

...and there are Nth-order effects for N>3 as well, but they are more subtle.

[andrewducker]

Of course not. But geeks seem to be strangely drawn to it. Possibly because their primary form of communication is online.

[kurosau.livejournal.com]

I think said discussion is just another fluff piece that misses the point. Communities online are no longer 'geeks', and this sort of thing is just more 'let's blame geeks for having social issues' crap that doesn't recognize that we're talking about conflicts that arise between all forms of people, geek or not.

I have to wonder if it's actually supposed to give you cred to criticize geek culture as being socially backward or vile in some way.

[andrewducker]

I see this more in geek communities than non-geek communities, online and not. Geeks tend to be _very_ good at poking holes in other people's arguments and ideas, and not backwards about doing so, in my experience. And, working in an IT department, I can tell you that it's not just online...

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

I see this this in entirely non-geeky conversations at work all the time. Geeks tend to overanalyse it after the fact though, like a teenager tearfully analysing every word of a conversation to see why their secret crush didn't want to go hang out with them.

If you're using geek as a shorthand for "someone with strong views but lacking an awareness of social etiquette", that's certainly something that geeks claim with a kind of pride but is hardly exclusive to geeks or nerds or whatever word you want to use to define a fairly nebulous social group that isn't exactly definable any more.

Some geeks are good at making straw men or pushing their own views, regardless of whether they fit the argument and thinking this means they're good at arguments because, in your numbered people, they have knowledge of numbers 4 and 5 (assuming that they are Bob) but the rest is irrelevant and/or unknowable to them. But there are plenty of people like that who aren't geeks - it's mostly geeks and your stereotypical daily mail readers who seem to be proud of being like that. I think this is one of those things where every subculture things that it's got something special tpye of situations.

I hardly ever see anyone use the word "pairwise"

[meaningrequired.livejournal.com]

I agree that is behaviour isn't limited to specific subgroups, but I would assume that "geeks" probably spend more time on factual information...

I think when things are ambiguous and there is no official answer, people are more likely to be tolerant of other people's views.

However when there is an answer, and someone is getting it wrong ("Pi = 4.21!") I think it can trigger frustration in those who know the answer. It's what you do at this point, let your frustration blast the person for being so stupid or find a kinder way to challenge their view or link to something that shows pi is 3.14 and why.

[kurosau.livejournal.com]

I also work in IT, and I think that this behavior is something all people do, not just any one subculture to a greater extent. But octopoid_horror says it better than I do.