Date: 2010-07-23 06:20 pm (UTC)
dpolicar: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dpolicar
Agreed. I think I would say something even weaker, in that I'm not convinced that hardware is irrelevant to computation.

So maybe we won't be able to replicate human consciousness on platforms radically different from the ones human consciousness is currently running on, any more than we can replicate the Internet on tin cans and string.

I just think the implication of that is non-human consciousness, rather than no consciousness at all.

Date: 2010-07-23 06:29 pm (UTC)
dpolicar: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dpolicar
(nods) And it might turn out to just be easier to replicate the hardware in its original configuration -- that is, replicate the person on carbon. Which would also have some built-in social-acceptance features.

Date: 2010-07-23 02:50 pm (UTC)
simont: A picture of me in 2016 (Default)
From: [personal profile] simont
on Fridays I'm not even sure I have consciousness

Me too, at least this Friday; and in situations like that I find it particularly easy to believe that a computer could simulate what I've got without being overly taxed! Hell, a very small shell script might get more useful work done this afternoon than I will.

Date: 2010-07-23 03:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com
Hm. When I first saw arguments like Penrose's I was comparatively young, and responded something like "wow, that's interesting. it's weird, but the guy is such a notable scientist, it must make some kind of sense, which is awesome".

Now, I think more like "I don't see why it should make any kind of sense." I suppose its possible that the brain does something a computer can't (although it seems unlikely to me) but there certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence other than wishful thinking that it does.

Date: 2010-07-23 03:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
I don't like the idea that I could be written in Java either.

I like to imagine it'd need something like Haskell, or at least Lisp.

More realistically I worry that I am in fact made of a hideous and haphazard hash-up of horrible K&R-style C, some iffy FORTRAN IV, and a few incomprehensible bits of assembler. The evidence definitely suggests I'm not implemented on anything that effectively abstracts memory management away.

Date: 2010-07-23 04:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Always thought that one was sailing close to pure blasphemy. God never used Perl for His hacking. If He did, it'd have been sh scripts (definitely no bash), a bit of sed, and if absolutely necessary a touch of awk. That's Hacking As God Intended.

Date: 2010-07-23 04:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andrewhickey.livejournal.com
No Bash?! Can you really see a real deity writing scripts without tab-completion?! (Not to mention he'd want to use a Free Software solution rather than a proprietary, closed one).

Personally, though, I think the mere existence of perl is proof that God doesn't exist, or that if he does he hates me...

Date: 2010-07-23 04:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
I know some people think Richard Stallman is God, but even He would admit that he isn't. :-)

Date: 2010-07-25 11:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mooism.livejournal.com
God might use Free Software, but surely surely doesn't write it: we've not been given the source code. We're having to reverse engineer it.

apt-get install universe-src

Date: 2010-07-25 01:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andrewhickey.livejournal.com
Maybe he'd give it us if anyone asked him for it - he's just not provided it as a default, to save disk space. But of course those who ask him stuff the most (the priesthood) make too much money from providing tech support to want anyone to be able to do anything by themselves.

Re: apt-get install universe-src

Date: 2010-07-25 04:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mooism.livejournal.com
God's Will being frustrated by Downstream? Say it ain't so!

Date: 2010-07-23 04:02 pm (UTC)
zz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zz
I'm now pondering what styles of code other pasta shapes would be besides spaghetti.

Date: 2010-07-23 05:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] holyoutlaw.livejournal.com
That's very funny.

Date: 2010-07-23 03:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] channelpenguin.livejournal.com
Oh Penrose is cracked -- at least on that issue. At least the microtubules thing (Emperor's new mind) is just... well... hmm.. At the time I had not long written a bloody long essay on microtubules so I was pretty sure he was talking out of his backside rather than way, way cleverer than me (and , of course, all the sources I had used in my essay, some of whom most defintiely *were* way cleverer than me).

Date: 2010-07-23 03:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] channelpenguin.livejournal.com
SOMETHING ELSE: Not sufficiently defined to answer the question.

Date: 2010-07-23 03:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drdoug.livejournal.com
Yes, this. I think that our widespread confusion about consciousness is because we don't really have a good enough understanding of what we mean by consciousness to ask the question with sufficient clarity that it would admit of an empirical answer.

My ill-informed but strongly-held hunch is that consciousness is a contingent, transitory illusion of certain emphatically physical processes in the human brain. I could be wrong. In fact, I've read enough disturbing experiments related to consciousness that I'm certain I'm wrong about all sorts of things, but that doesn't stop me believing them firmly.

Consciousness...

Date: 2010-07-23 03:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meaningrequired.livejournal.com
Created by bacteria.

Date: 2010-07-23 03:30 pm (UTC)
nameandnature: Giles from Buffy (Default)
From: [personal profile] nameandnature
"reducible" is the nearest, though I suppose someone like David Chalmers could be right without interactive dualism being true (which is the usual explanation preferred by people who believe in souls and whatnot).

Date: 2010-07-23 04:43 pm (UTC)
nameandnature: Giles from Buffy (river brain)
From: [personal profile] nameandnature
Chalmers is a philosopher who thinks that consciousness relies on more than physical stuff, because there is a possible (for some value of "possible" which is itself the subject of much discussion, as far as I can tell) world in which everything is physically identical to this world, but people aren't conscious. The possible world is usually called the "zombie world", and the people in it "philosophical zombies".

If I remember rightly, Chalmers does think that the physical world is casually closed, so he doesn't think that consciousness pushes back on the world, if you like: on his view, consciousness is an epiphenomenon produced by special laws about consciousness which apply in our world (he calls these "bridging laws", which is a term from the philosophy of science for laws which map one scientific theory onto another, like mapping classical thermodynamics onto statistical mechanics, say).

The strong AI people think Chalmers's idea is pretty silly, hence Yudkowsky's Philosophical Zombie Movie, in which the line "I'm Daniel Dennett, bitches" wins the Internet.

However, supernaturalists typically won't find Chalmers's ideas satisfactory either: there's a popular argument for theism which more or less runs "Fucking consciousness, how does that work?", based on the idea that atheists must also be materialists. Chalmers is an atheist non-materialist.

Interactive dualism is the view that there's some separate sort of mind stuff that causes physical stuff to happen. While Googling that, I found a useful summary of mind body relations.
Edited Date: 2010-07-23 04:45 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-07-23 03:40 pm (UTC)
yalovetz: A black and white scan of an illustration of an old Jewish man from Kurdistan looking a bit grizzled (Default)
From: [personal profile] yalovetz
I don't think consciousness is reducible purely to computation, I think it's probably an emergent property that results from a combination of computation, the hardware it runs on, and possibly other stuff we're not yet aware of, like maybe when and where the computation is instantiated on that hardware. I don't think the hardware necessarily has to be biological, however. So my answer is somewhere in between options 1 and 2.

Date: 2010-07-23 03:51 pm (UTC)
zz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zz
With a sufficient understanding and a powerful enough "computer", we could also presumably model the behaviour of the hardware, though.
Edited Date: 2010-07-23 03:52 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-07-23 03:54 pm (UTC)
yalovetz: A black and white scan of an illustration of an old Jewish man from Kurdistan looking a bit grizzled (Default)
From: [personal profile] yalovetz
Only if you think that all physical properties are reducible to computation, which I'm not convinced of.

Date: 2010-07-23 04:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andrewhickey.livejournal.com
The Bekenstein Bound puts an upper limit on the amount of different states a quantum system can be in. Given that, every finite system is, literally, a finite-state machine.

In the case of an average human being, any computer capable of processing data on the order of 2.5072178×10^38 megabytes could therefore *perfectly* emulate that person, unless:

1) The Bekenstein Bound doesn't hold. The Bekenstein Bound is equivalent to a restatement of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, one of the cornerstones of modern physics. Or:

2) The Church-Turing thesis is false. This is the cornerstone of modern computer science.

These two, the Uncertainty Principle and the Church-Turing thesis, are two of the most tested, most reliable scientific findings of the last century.

If the world was classical, not quantum, then because classical physics deals in continua it would be theoretically possible to have a non-computable physical system. But at a fine enough granularity quantum physics seems to hold.

So I'm pretty certain that all physical processes are computable, because the opposite would require me to have a better explanation than the best current knowledge in two different sciences...

Date: 2010-07-23 04:33 pm (UTC)
yalovetz: A black and white scan of an illustration of an old Jewish man from Kurdistan looking a bit grizzled (Default)
From: [personal profile] yalovetz
Yep, it seems plausible to me that all physical processes can be described by computation. What I'm not so sure of is whether they're reducible to that computation.

Date: 2010-07-23 04:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andrewhickey.livejournal.com
I'm sorry, I don't understand the distinction you're making here...

Date: 2010-07-23 03:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] captainlucy.livejournal.com
I would say it lies somewhere between can be simulated by a computer, but the simulation couldn't produce "real understanding" and can't even be simulated by computer, but nevertheless has a scientific explanation
.
One day it will probably be possible to simulate true consciousness (hell, given sufficient time, computing power and imaginative soft- and hardware architecture, it may even be possible to recreate a true consciousness) but I think it takes more than just raw computation to do this (though admittedly I would be at a loss to even start trying to explain why this is...)

Date: 2010-07-23 03:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ashfae.livejournal.com
Rephrase: could be simulated by computer in theory, possibly, given a powerful enough computer, the likes of which we're not yet capable of building. Which may mean my real vote should be for the first option.

(I'm firmly in the "Do I believe science can explain everything? Yes. So I believe we know all there is to know about science? No." camp)

Date: 2010-07-23 04:00 pm (UTC)
zz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zz
Yes, I was assuming this. I don't understand when people forget progress happens. Or indeed supposed scientists who operate on "if it's not proven true it must be false", rather than just not known yet.

Date: 2010-07-23 04:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lpetrazickis.livejournal.com
I think people tend to confuse consciousness with being human. Humans also hunger, thirst, lust, love, and seek shelter. These things are motivated by our core animal nature, not by any sort of abstract reasoning.

Date: 2010-07-23 04:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] communicator.livejournal.com
Consciousness is primary and everything else is merely a deduction to explain the contents of consciousness.

Date: 2010-07-23 04:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alextfish.livejournal.com
Either 1 or 4, and I'm not sure which. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out consciousness doesn't have a scientific explanation, but Hofstadter's reductionist arguments are persuasive.

Date: 2010-07-23 04:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] phillipalden.livejournal.com
I'm the one vote for "doesn't have a scientific explanation.."

Consciousness is part of Spirit. Like many things in the Mind and a few things in the Body, Consciousness (being part of the Spirit) cannot be seen or measured, (aside from extensive behavioral observation.)

Date: 2010-07-24 07:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nmg.livejournal.com
[x] I'm an AI researcher, and I'm not sure that I can answer this question.
[x] Sometimes I worry that I'm a zombie, on the grounds that I cant prove that I have qualia.

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