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no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 02:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 06:20 pm (UTC)So maybe we won't be able to replicate human consciousness on platforms radically different from the ones human consciousness is currently running on, any more than we can replicate the Internet on tin cans and string.
I just think the implication of that is non-human consciousness, rather than no consciousness at all.
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Date: 2010-07-23 06:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 06:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 02:50 pm (UTC)Me too, at least this Friday; and in situations like that I find it particularly easy to believe that a computer could simulate what I've got without being overly taxed! Hell, a very small shell script might get more useful work done this afternoon than I will.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 02:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:11 pm (UTC)Now, I think more like "I don't see why it should make any kind of sense." I suppose its possible that the brain does something a computer can't (although it seems unlikely to me) but there certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence other than wishful thinking that it does.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:34 pm (UTC)I like to imagine it'd need something like Haskell, or at least Lisp.
More realistically I worry that I am in fact made of a hideous and haphazard hash-up of horrible K&R-style C, some iffy FORTRAN IV, and a few incomprehensible bits of assembler. The evidence definitely suggests I'm not implemented on anything that effectively abstracts memory management away.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:38 pm (UTC)http://xkcd.com/224/
no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:27 pm (UTC)Personally, though, I think the mere existence of perl is proof that God doesn't exist, or that if he does he hates me...
no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-25 11:21 am (UTC)apt-get install universe-src
Date: 2010-07-25 01:01 pm (UTC)Re: apt-get install universe-src
Date: 2010-07-25 04:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 05:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:29 pm (UTC)My ill-informed but strongly-held hunch is that consciousness is a contingent, transitory illusion of certain emphatically physical processes in the human brain. I could be wrong. In fact, I've read enough disturbing experiments related to consciousness that I'm certain I'm wrong about all sorts of things, but that doesn't stop me believing them firmly.
Consciousness...
Date: 2010-07-23 03:28 pm (UTC)Re: Consciousness...
Date: 2010-07-23 03:35 pm (UTC)No toilet roll - bacteria
Can't find the Apple TV remote - bacteria
The duvet mysteriously disappearing from my side of the bed and appearing on your side - bacteria
Disease - bacteria
I'm not even sure they exist! _I've_ never seen one!
no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:43 pm (UTC)If I remember rightly, Chalmers does think that the physical world is casually closed, so he doesn't think that consciousness pushes back on the world, if you like: on his view, consciousness is an epiphenomenon produced by special laws about consciousness which apply in our world (he calls these "bridging laws", which is a term from the philosophy of science for laws which map one scientific theory onto another, like mapping classical thermodynamics onto statistical mechanics, say).
The strong AI people think Chalmers's idea is pretty silly, hence Yudkowsky's Philosophical Zombie Movie, in which the line "I'm Daniel Dennett, bitches" wins the Internet.
However, supernaturalists typically won't find Chalmers's ideas satisfactory either: there's a popular argument for theism which more or less runs "Fucking consciousness, how does that work?", based on the idea that atheists must also be materialists. Chalmers is an atheist non-materialist.
Interactive dualism is the view that there's some separate sort of mind stuff that causes physical stuff to happen. While Googling that, I found a useful summary of mind body relations.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 06:22 pm (UTC)Interactive Dualism I could have guessed at - just hadn't bumped into Chalmers before. I remember chunks of this stuff from the philosophy I did at uni, but generally not the names of the people associated with it.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 06:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:23 pm (UTC)In the case of an average human being, any computer capable of processing data on the order of 2.5072178×10^38 megabytes could therefore *perfectly* emulate that person, unless:
1) The Bekenstein Bound doesn't hold. The Bekenstein Bound is equivalent to a restatement of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, one of the cornerstones of modern physics. Or:
2) The Church-Turing thesis is false. This is the cornerstone of modern computer science.
These two, the Uncertainty Principle and the Church-Turing thesis, are two of the most tested, most reliable scientific findings of the last century.
If the world was classical, not quantum, then because classical physics deals in continua it would be theoretically possible to have a non-computable physical system. But at a fine enough granularity quantum physics seems to hold.
So I'm pretty certain that all physical processes are computable, because the opposite would require me to have a better explanation than the best current knowledge in two different sciences...
no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:43 pm (UTC).
One day it will probably be possible to simulate true consciousness (hell, given sufficient time, computing power and imaginative soft- and hardware architecture, it may even be possible to recreate a true consciousness) but I think it takes more than just raw computation to do this (though admittedly I would be at a loss to even start trying to explain why this is...)
no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 03:46 pm (UTC)(I'm firmly in the "Do I believe science can explain everything? Yes. So I believe we know all there is to know about science? No." camp)
no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-23 04:23 pm (UTC)Consciousness is part of Spirit. Like many things in the Mind and a few things in the Body, Consciousness (being part of the Spirit) cannot be seen or measured, (aside from extensive behavioral observation.)
no subject
Date: 2010-07-24 07:59 am (UTC)[x] Sometimes I worry that I'm a zombie, on the grounds that I cant prove that I have qualia.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-24 08:03 am (UTC)b) Have you seen the Philosphical Zombie Movie (link below)?