Zoom!

[andrewducker]

From the observation last night in conversation with Lilian that people complain about speed cameras all the time, but you rarely hear anyone saying that the actual limit should be raised.

Note for for'n types - speeds are in MPH.

[Poll #1257772]

Comments

[drplokta]

We should increase speed limits on urban trunk roads to 40, and reduce them on urban non-A-roads to 20. That will slow down traffic on most urban roads, while probably having little effect on journey times.

And we should enforce the law. It brings the law into disrepute to have laws on the books that are not enforced. If you don't think you should get a ticket when you are speeding, you should call for speed limits to be abolished, not for speed cameras to be abolished.

[andrewducker]

Definitely agree with the latter sentiment.

She former sounds sensible, but I'll need to think about it more. Certainly, the bendy backstreets should be 20-mph, but there are non-A-roads that are intermediate cases. Hmm.

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

I think the current limit of 30mph is slow enough from a survivability POV - what advantages does lowering it have other than increasing motorists' blood pressure?

[snowking.livejournal.com]

Linky

The evidence of increased pedestrian safety at 20 mph is strong. The chance of a pedestrian being seriously injured or killed if struck by a car is 45% if the car is travelling at 30 mph but only 5% at 20 mph. Government research showed that 20 mph zones reduced the incidence of traffic accidents by 60% and cut child pedestrian and child cyclist accidents by 67%, while overall vehicle speeds fell by an average 9.3 mph (14.9 kph). There was no evidence that accidents increased on surrounding roads. Research by local councils produces similar results. For example, Havant Borough Council has imposed a 20 mph limit on 20 miles of road and has seen traffic accident casualties drop by a significant 40%.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

How much of that was due to traffic finding alternative routes to avoid the stupidly low 20 mph?

[snowking.livejournal.com]

Gosh, it's a good thing that traffic was just the good drivers who never have accidents, eh?

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

I will be the first to say that I personally feel that 20mph is too low to adopt it as the speed across cities - maybe around schools or in cul-de-sacs (there are roads in Leicester and Peterborough that are already 20mph because it's a better idea). However, the statistic you posted is food for thought, and is also proof that the Government's "if you hit me at 30, there's a 80% chance I'll live" advertisements are bollocks.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

Actually, they both match up. 80% chance of survival = 20% chance of dying.
45% chance of dying or serious injury means just that; you are combining both stats.

i.e. 20% death, 25% serious injury, 55% non-serious injury or better.

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

Ah, whoops, misread that.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

'Sokay :) I figured it was just momentary stats blindness.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

Your comment, dripping in sarcasm is it is, is non-sensical. I made a perfectly valid point that drivers would rather drive on fast roads than slow ones and would therefore avoid the slower roads and you start talking crap.

Come back to me when you actually either have an answer to my question or a more reasonable response.

[endless-psych.livejournal.com]

Us Northen types have 20mph limits around all our schools.

However one worrying knock on effect is that kids seem to have less road sense. Although I couldn't empirically prove that and it is just based on my opinion of just picking up my Dad from work. (kids everywhere)

[chuma.livejournal.com]

These speed limits I have no problem with and are usually only operative during certain hours. However my point stands: If you generally drop road speeds to 20 mph from 30 or 40, traffic will just be diverted to other faster roads. Given the high usage of GPS these days, keying in "avoid 20mph roads" when the maps update, or just marking which roads to avoid manually on a journey to work and back would mean finding a faster alternative route is child's play.

[andrewducker]

Which would push people onto A roads, which are designed for more traffic, and have less pedestrians crossing willy-nilly.

This would presumably be a good thing.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

Not in a big city though, unless you make ALL roads in the city 20mph, in which case you get more congestion at peak times, slower traffic throughput and a range of other problems. Basically it boils down to whether you think avoiding accidents is more important that havign a functioning road system and town.

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

I concur. I think 30mph is the ideal balance between preventing serious accidents and preventing complete lockup.

[andrewducker]

Big cities you have roads which are clearly there for higher speed travel (London Road, Leith Walk, Lothian Road), and ones that are purely urban (my street, for instance). I'd be fine with higher speed limits on the travel roads, and lower ones on the backstreets. 20MPH on my street would seem just fine to me. It'd be silly for Leith Walk (well, once the construction's finished)

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

Does it matter? If it worked, it worked.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

Yes ofcourse it matters. If you are just pushing a problem from one raod to another you are just diverting traffic and accidents to surrounding roads.

I'm a bit disturbed

[nuttyxander.livejournal.com]

What part of "There was no evidence that accidents increased on surrounding roads" is it that you don't like?

Re: I'm a bit disturbed

[chuma.livejournal.com]

The part where...
a, you didn't say it and infact haven't commented yet so your utterly condescending nature is laughably out of place and...
b, I have intelligence and logic and know that AS A DRIVER I wouldn't drive in 20 mph roads given a choice.

Infact the "evidence that accidents increased on surrounding roads" isn't required, just give us the throughput of traffic on those roads that dropped their speed limits to 20 mph and if that traffic has dropped in line with the rate of accidents then the figures are manipulation of statistics.

Additionally, *I* asked the question. If you can't answer it, shut the fuck up and let someone more qualified than you speak. If you can, contribute the data rather than being a prick and trying to sound elitist when you have no basis in your asinine comments for being so.


Does that answer your question? Or would you like me to tear apart your flippant little comments further?

Re: I'm a bit disturbed

[andrewducker]

a) Pointing out a bit of argument he believes you've overlooked or are deliberately avoiding is perfectly reasonable.
b) Swearing at someone and calling them names is most definitely not.

If you don't like his tone, then please tell him so politely, rather than descending into a slagging match.

Re: I'm a bit disturbed

[nuttyxander.livejournal.com]

I'll comment on here in whatever order I see fit it you don't mind. If you are insisting that your comments are all based on logic and intelligence and some superiority related to your having a driving licence and a pair of wheels that's fine. However, I don't, for example use a wheelchair, but it still pisses me royally off when I see pavements obstructed by anything: cars, roadworks, people even to make life that little bit harder for those without choices.

And that's the thing, a child lives where they're brought up. They don't commute tens of miles by car to get to work. They just want to cross the road, see their friends, whatever. And maybe it is sensible that we discourage drivers such as yourself from driving down their street and instead driving down a trunk road or a main street where there are lighted crossings and other safer ways to cross.

If all you want is data, then go and look it up, I'm not your google-bot and I'll respond as I see fit within the realms of polite-ish conversation. Apologies if my tone has made you go off on one, but this is the internet and strong opinions do go with the territory.

One question, would you shop by preference in a supermarket that had a 30mph speed limit in their car park rather than 10mph or 5mph or do you understand that in such a place the road has a higher utility for storing vehicles and balancing that need with the safety of pedestrians reaching them and passing them than enabling the cars to leave and enter quickly?