Baffled by the strangeness of my friends list

[andrewducker]

Some interesting comments on yesterday's poll.

Most interesting was a few people complaining that they didn't have the option they wanted on the poll. Two which I have two responses:
1) As I've made clear before, no simple structure is ever going to map onto a complex situation. So complaining that a poll on "favourite Indiana Jones movie" misses out "Last Crusade" is reasonable, but complaining that one on prostitution doesn't have an option for every possible way of dealing with it strikes me as fatuous.
2) These people apparently wanted an option for "Prostitution should be legal, but I'm again slavery, beatings, and rape." I'm sorry, but on this journal you're assumed to be against those things (well, in actual sense, feel free to tie each other up in a consensual way). I wasn't going to ask if you were in favour of prostitution being legalised providing it didn't involve the death of the prostitute either - because you're assumed to not be in favour of people stabbing prostitutes to death. If you're in favour of slavery, rape, murder, etc. then feel free to leave a comment and I'll ban you when I get home tonight.

Honestly, you people baffle me, you really do.

Comments

[heron61.livejournal.com]

If you're in favour of slavery, rape, murder, etc. then feel free to leave a comment and I'll ban you when I get home tonight.

I actually had two people who I think were a bit iffy on those topics commenting on my journal. I banned them. Both of them banned me, but one of them is oddly still friended to me.

[ripperlyn.livejournal.com]

I suppose it shows that there's still a long way to go in distinguishing between the idealised view of prostitution as a business where goods are for sale, and the reality of its exploitative side; people may be in favour of the idea of a nice, civilised view of prostitution as being just like any other career, but at the same time want an option that acknowledges this isn't actually the reality in a high number of cases.

[andrewducker]

Oh absolutely. But the illegality is a large chunk of what makes it so bad for the women, and it makes it nigh impossible to help them.

It's my understanding that forcing women out of prostitution doesn't work - you have to help them to stabilise their lives, offer them opportunities and let them make that choice if they want to. Illegality makes parts one and two of that very hard.

[ripperlyn.livejournal.com]

One of the people on my flist posted an article about Belle du Jour which you might want to have a look at (if they're not on your flist already).

My point was that while illegality may mean that rapes/assaults/slavery are more likely to be happening it's possible the people who wanted the stipulations added just wanted it to be acknowledged that there are different facets to the 'profession.'

[henriksdal.livejournal.com]

I'm really confused - is everyone agreeing that 100% of prostitution = slavery, rape and murder? Where are you getting that from? Gut instinct and the BBC News website? Two of my mates work with support for sex workers and the whole issue is just massively more complicated and your poll is, well, a bit knobby. Like saying "Drugs are: bad, bad but the police should leave users alone, bad and the police should arrest every single drug user"

My experience of this is vastly limited, but the two sex workers I used to know, although on/off heroin users, were hardly enslaved, beaten rape victims. More like sex work provided a way of getting lots of money, quickly, for women unable to hold down a "proper" job.

[henriksdal.livejournal.com]

Actually, I managed to read the "legal" option as "illegal", and then got caught up in reading the comments. Doh! Anyway, it makes a little more sense now.

[andrewducker]

Glad you worked it out in the end :->

And I think you'll find that one of those friends of yours who works with sex workers is also a friend of mine...

[henriksdal.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know.. you're still coming across as saying that all prostitution, whilst it is illegal, must therefore be rape, beating, slavery, etc. While I'm saying it isn't.

I'm always amused at the idea that by making sex work illegal you'll get rid of it. Like, the "world's oldest profession" is going to vanish just like that. Nutters.

[andrewducker]

you're still coming across as saying that all prostitution, whilst it is illegal, must therefore be rape, beating, slavery, etc.

Where, exactly, do I say that?

[andrewducker]

Ahem. That may have come across a little strongly. Let me rephrase:

I don't believe I've said that at all, but I'm interested to see where I've given that impression - could you point out the bit where I have?

Cheers!

[henriksdal.livejournal.com]

(I may be getting muddled due to having spent most of the morning being closely involved with the toilet, this not being helpful to clear thinking.)

OK, now I have actually managed to put some brain cells into order and stopped vomiting long enough to re-read the comments, you weren't saying that at all in fact; one of the other commenters were gaaah..! Please in future ignore me unless I am talking about seabirds, then you must pay rapt attention in silent and overwhelming awe.

[andrewducker]

Oh God. Sorry you're having such a crap morning. Hope you feel better later on.

[henriksdal.livejournal.com]

It's OK, I'm just going to complain about it loudly to everyone until it goes away, which is my main method of problem solving anyway.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I think there is a difference between something being legal, and it being legal under certain conditions. What most people wanted was for brothels to be legal in designated areas rather than it being legal on the streets. I personally think that is a pretty key point as if it were to be legal everywhere under any conditions, you'd find some people, especially those with kids, prefering it to be illegal instead.

The finer points like whether it should be illegal for a prostitute to practice outside of a brothel or for the man seeking her I agree would not be part of the poll.

There was 2 grades of poll for the illegal branch "crack down more" or "not worth police time". Maybe there should have been 2 for legal, being "fully legal" and "legal under certain conditions or designated areas".

Sorry dude, I don't find it that baffling. However it does show the inherent weaknesses of believing polls. If the options are restricted, the voice is sometimes misheard. 1992 Election polls spring immediately to mind...

[andrewducker]

There are _at least_ 500 different options for the legality of prostitution. This is why laws are complex documents lasting for dozens/hundreds of pages rather than just a single sentence. If you think any poll I could write wouldn't have people arguing over why their particular opinion wasn't included then you haven't been paying attention :->

How, exactly, you'd like prostitution legalised is a matter for comments, not clicky boxes.

[chuma.livejournal.com]

I'm sure there are infinite variations, however only the important ones should matter. If you didn't think there should be an selection for how you would like it to be legal, why is there a choice for how it should be illegal?

Can I also suggest a 5th option of "Creator of this poll is taking this who lack of options argument waaay too personally"? Seriously, noone is getting at you, they just want to be able to express their opinion. The fact that there were 20 comments is because of this. You have the poll you way you wanted it, that doesn't mean the debate has to stop there. If people want to discuss it further, surely the comments of the poll is the place to take it to?

[drdoug.livejournal.com]

Avoiding the substantive issues entirely, I'm surprised that you're baffled at people complaining about poll choices. Surely you've been around enough of the web to know that everyone complains about poll options? Bound to be even more likely on a contentious issue where people will be even more than usually sensitive to having their views shoe-horned in to a not-perfectly-representative statement.

Slavery mmmmmmmm

[poisonduk.livejournal.com]

Can I get my own personal male slave to keep under my bed and order out when I need serviced?

Re: Slavery mmmmmmmm

[laserboy.livejournal.com]

Isn't that why you're trying to get on that Barrowman game show. :P

[aliiis.livejournal.com]

Can I just put my hand up to be counted as one of the "didn't feel the need to explicitly state that I'm not a huge fan of rape, violence, human trafficking, underage prostitution, etc etc (also think it's a bit hasty to assume that any discussion of legal sex work necessarily has to involve any of these)" silent majority here?

Can I also say that my immediate reaction to reading this post (over breakfast) was "Hmm, what IS my favourite Indiana Jones movie? I suppose it IS Last Crusade... the girl in Raiders is cute, but Last Crusade has cheeky Sean Connery and that zeppelin bit and the cool bridge that you can't see, yeah... don, what's yours?"

[guyinahat.livejournal.com]

You post an oversimplified poll and then build assumptions into what you mean without stating them. I think it's sloppy to not be clear about what you mean. Especially as exploitation is very significant in the context of prostitution.

Oh, and brown and yellow is not very inspiring. Can't you brighten it up a bit. Maybe add some flowers?

[themongkey.livejournal.com]

Perhaps next time you should have a pre-poll poll allowing people to vote on which options they'd like in the post-pre-poll poll poll.

[jccw.livejournal.com]

Doesn't Sweden or somewhere consider prostitution legal, but soliciting illegal? Seems like that would have the right effect (discouraging prostitution-the-economic-transaction while decriminalizing the women who are generally being victimized)

I guess as an American, I don't have a big problem with there being certain places where anything goes (Vegas) as a compromise between "police state" and "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"...

[blackmanxy.livejournal.com]

Actually, I was thinking just the same thing as chuma about how "illegal" had two options and "legal" had one. I'd say either throw the dichotomy up there and leave it to comments, or give each side a couple options and... leave it to comments. Because it's going to come down to comments. And people are still going to complain that their unique opinion isn't represented.

And that's what I don't understand. Why can't people just pick the option that fits and then explain their own, specific opinions on the issue without attaching some snarky comment about how the poll doesn't fit them? Discussions always start from simple beginnings -- offhand comments or simple questions -- and a simplified poll is really no different.

Unfortunately, people get so hung up on how specific a poll is in relation to their beliefs that, instead of just discussing the issue, we get threads like this where we have to discuss how complex the issue is and how polls should be set up and a whole mess of niggling little points that are ultimately more distracting than useful.

[spaj.livejournal.com]

I'm surprised, and as perhaps the first to complain, naturally offended. ;)

I perhaps wasn't succinct in my response - I didn't expect a Scott-Adams style blogging-of-his-blog.

Let me try again.

You asked (paraphrasing)"prostitution, what are your views"

Now, prostitution can clearly mean two things:
1 - the act of prostitution, selling your sex for money
2 - the sex industry, and the associations with (not 100%) underworld, crime, and general badness.

I think your poll options are valid choices for each of these meanings, but in the first case, I would answer one way, and in the second case, another.

(for clarity:
option 1 - do you think that sex for money = ok?
option 2 - do you think that the bad things in the sex industry are bad enough to try to expend effort and taxes cracking down on these criminals)

Hence, I voiced my confusion, and gave my answer, which was one option for one, and another option for the other.

I wasn't asking whether you thought I thought that raping beating and enslaving women was a good thing. As you rightly point out, that's not a question you should need answered from people on your friends list.

Imagine you're a soul-less accountant with a dog on his lap, then try reading your question again? I'm surprised you can't see the genuine (rape/beating/slavery != genuine) confusion which this caused.

Adam

[dapperscavenger.livejournal.com]

Well, since you had two different versions of 'illegal', why couldn't we have two different versions of 'legal'? :p

When I read your poll, it seemed to be weighted against the 'legal' option and therefore made me feel like there was some bias involved.