Frustration part 1

[andrewducker]

One of the many, many things I have done to annoy my various girlfriends is to treat their problems as things in search of a solution.  They would come to me and say "X is wrong." and I would explain to them how to fix it.

Clearly, this is not what they were looking for, and they would find it very annoying that I would spend time trying to explain the patently obvious to them.  What they were actually looking for was some emotional reassurance while they sorted it out themselves, which they were perfectly capable of doing so, if only someone would give them a hug, and tell them it would all be ok.

My problem is that when people come to me with their problems, I take them on as my own.  If someone says "I can't do X." then I treat X as _my_ problem.  I care about X.  I worry about X.  I desparately want to get X sorted.  Knowing that X is out there, carrying on with it's wilful existence, makes me feel itchy and frankly I want it gone.

With some problems (other people's computers, for instance) this is fine - I can step in, fix the problem, receive a brief round of applause, and then relax.

Other problems, however, aren't so simple.  They involve emotional situations which _aren't in my head_.  They're in someone else's head, and no matter how much I want to lean over, flip open their head and fix the problem, I can't.  Which means I get more and more frustrated, because I've taken on this problem and I'm not allowed to fix it.  And then I make things worse by pressuring them to fix it, so that I can feel better again.

The question, then, is how to care about someone else's problem without taking ownership of it.  I can do that intellectually, but if I actually _emotionally_ care about someone's problem, then I get sucked back into this horrible situation again, pressuring them to fix their problem, so that I can feel better again.

Hmmmm.  Going to require more work, I think

Comments

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

It's not *exclusively* a female thing, I don't suppose.

It seems connected to what we were talking about once about how people need the *form* of consideration and support even if they knew the substance was lacking. I just cannot understand that one at all, but I had to agree it was true.

I suppose people want you to care about *them* not see them as a series of problems, or as anything more functionally decomposed than the whole of themselves. Whereas you, and I, and many people of a similar mindset almost compulsive break things down into components and deal with them like that.

I really don't know, *I* don't think or feel that breaking something down and getting into more detail is a diminishment of anything (people, art, whatever), but rather an enhancement - but it is clear that many folks think/feel the opposite - I don't know why at all. Maybe that's it. Not eveyone is desperate to know the 'why' (and 'how') of things. greater understanding is greater enjoyment/appreciation for me...

[pickwick.livejournal.com]

I suppose people want you to care about *them* not see them as a series of problems, or as anything more functionally decomposed than the whole of themselves.

I don't think it's even that. I find it kind of odd that men get so confused about this, because I know men don't only talk about things they're happy with or that they need someone else to fix for them. If you get annoyed at other drivers, it doesn't help for me to say "If it upsets you like this, I think you should get rid of your car," or other ways to fix the "problem".

If I'm complaining, unless I specifically say something like "I don't know what to do about it," I'm just bitching. If someone starts trying to tell me what to do about it (especially if they're telling rather than offering suggestions) I generally feel patronised as hell. Partially because it is often a male/female thing, I think, which gives the impression that blokes think I need them to sort stuff out for me. But then, I'm stubborn, and won't let men help me build flat-pack furniture on principle, because they always think they know best :D

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

I rarely do 'just bitching'. Seriously, if I am annoyed about something I'd really, really, really rather it was fixed somehow - and I expect that it could be - at least theoretically, and probably by my own actions somehow - though it may not in fact be worth the cost in the end and so mayn to get done, but then again that is my decision isn't it? Under my control.

Maybe it is just my own monstrous arrogance.

Not to say that I haven't had my moments when I was younger - teens/early 20's, but I can't recall any real instances since then.

And plenty of men do 'just bitching'!

[birdofparadox.livejournal.com]

If you know you're "just bitching," though, why don't you communicate more effectively? Why not start your rambling with "I just need to vent, I'm not looking for solutions, just an ear..." I think part of the biggest problem between the sexes (other than gender role socialization) is that so many people (and it's women more than men) automagically assume that their motivations ought to be completely obvious to any half-wit they encounter. This is clearly not the case.

Unless the guy's a complete dolt, he'll likely pick up that you're just venting after a few times of being told. Getting pissed off and defensive because someone's trying to help is never going to help the situation. Even if a guy is laying out a plan of attack for your problem, 9 times out of 10, he's not trying to insult your intelligence. He's probably just trying to help, because he gives a damn.

[mglover.livejournal.com]

I can identify closely with Andrew's original post. If someone brings a problem to me, I try to solve it. That's what I do. I'm a problem solver. My job is all about coming up with solutions. I work sudoku puzzles while I wait for the elevator. This (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mglover/6556893/) is who I am.

Every fiber of my being is wired so that if you relate a problem, I assume that you're doing so with the expectation of assistance. When I try to solve it, I'm not trying to prove that I'm better, or smarter, or any other weirdo social manuvering because I just don't work that way. I don't do social manuvering. I solve because the problem is there.

If you present a problem and you just want commiseration, that's fine, but there's a fairly large subset of people that don't communicate that way. Presenting a problem to us isn't a prompt for empathy. If empathy is your desired response, you'll get better results by making that plain to us. You show me an equation and I solve for X because "solve for X" is implied. "Give me a hug" is never implied by an equation.

[birdofparadox.livejournal.com]

But you comply immediately when I ask for one.

This is exactly why I married you.

[andrewducker]

If you're a problem solver, why can't you solve the problem "What do women want when they tell us their problems?"

[mglover.livejournal.com]

Hahaha

That problem is insoluble as currently phrased as it's based on the assumption that (A) all women want the same thing when they tell us their problems and (B) any given woman wants the same thing every single time she tells us her problems.

All I can do is respond consistently to try to achieve consistent results.

[andrewducker]

So you admit that they want different things every time, but that you respond consistently? That seems like odd behaviour.

Presumably you're making an assumption about what they want, and always applying that assumption. As that assumption seems to be the less likely one for women (not always, but it seems to be statistically so), it seems like an odd choice to make...

[mglover.livejournal.com]

We have three elements here. (A) What they want, (B) what they do, and (C) how I respond. A is unknown. B is known. I generate C based on B the same way every time. If you want C to be based on A rather than B alone, B better involve articulating A.

[andrewducker]

I generate C based on B the same way every time.

And yet, according to the person who you're most commonly generating C for, you do it _wrong_ more often than not. Surely, in that case, you'd be best off changing how you generate C based on B each time, so that the odds were more in your favour?

[mglover.livejournal.com]

That depends on your idea of what "wrong" is. You're proposing that I attempt to guess what the desired output might be and react accordingly. That's exactly how I don't operate. I am reliably predictable. If you tell me you want commiseration, I'll commiserate. If you tell me you have a problem, I'll try to help solve it. Knowing these things, if you want commiseration but you tell me you have a problem, which one of us has the communication issue?

[birdofparadox.livejournal.com]

Who ever said I said he was doing it wrong? Certainly not me.

[andrewducker]

I suppose people want you to care about *them* not see them as a series of problems, or as anything more functionally decomposed than the whole of themselves.

You're thinking about this too much.

1) They have a problem.
2) They know how to fix the problem.
3) Having the problem stresses them out/makes them feel unhappy.
4) They want a hug, and some reassurance, so that they feel better (and possibly better enough to go deal with it).
5) Telling them The Answer just makes them feel patronised (see point 2). And doesn't solve the stress/unhappiness (see point 3).

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

You're thinking about this too much.

:-) can never have too much thought [well unless your life/physical wellbeing depends on action within a time limit, obviously :-) ]

Well why the hell not say "gah, this is stressing me out, come here an give me a hug cos that'll make me feel better for a bit"? Or just *do* it, go hug them and say nothing.

Only fixing the problem *actually* helps. Anything else is just putting a patch on it and covering it up for a while.

[andrewducker]

1) When most people feel stressed they are unable to deal with problems that are going to cause _more_ stress. They need to calm down firt.
2) "gah, this is stressing me out, come here an give me a hug cos that'll make me feel better for a bit" - that's pretty much exactly what they do. Or has nobody ever complained at you for giving them solutions?

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

1) Fair enough. I have learned that the only real answer is just to get on with the solution. So it doesn't much matter how you *feel*, just get on with what needs to be done! (that's pretty much a theme with my life though).

2) On occasion, yeah. More that we get into a loud argument about the proposed solution which also relieves the stress nicely in the end 9and may actually improve your ideas on what to do.)

[birdofparadox.livejournal.com]

My husband does this exact same thing: he attacks problems with a vengeance, and so when I want to complain and get a bit of sympathy/comiseration, he'll come in with guns blazing to fix the problem.

It used to bother me, but now I understand that his burning desire to FIX things... is his way of expressing his concern/care. He loves me, and he dislikes the situation, and wants me to be happy. Therefore, he must attack the problem.

Women who are into geeky guys need to realize that many of the things that make them so attractive, also make them somewhat removed. Their huge sexy brains make them natural problemsolvers. They also live in their head, and don't often make huge sweeping displays of affection. However, when they DO express emotion, it is sincere.

That's more than one can say for so very many charming men who smile and nod vapidly at whatever a woman's saying because they think if they look sympathetic and understanding, you'll eventually shut up and sleep with them.

[andrewducker]

That's more than one can say for so very many charming men who smile and nod vapidly at whatever a woman's saying because they think if they look sympathetic and understanding, you'll eventually shut up and sleep with them.

You mean you won't?

*changes tactics*

[birdofparadox.livejournal.com]

*see icon*

[andrewducker]

*falls off chair*

[birdofparadox.livejournal.com]

Oh, and on this topic:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1329362959167995041

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

Well it's worked for you so far so I'd say, stick with what you know :-)

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

That's more than one can say for so very many charming men who smile and nod vapidly at whatever a woman's saying because they think if they look sympathetic and understanding, you'll eventually shut up and sleep with them.

*snort*

Fortunately, I am *WAY* to shallow for that one to work :-) Make my mind up on that score in about 30 seconds (and I'm secretly convinced that most people so the same - but don't admit it for whatever reasons).

[birdofparadox.livejournal.com]

I'm a geek: brains are what gets me goin'. :)