Frustration part 1

[andrewducker]

One of the many, many things I have done to annoy my various girlfriends is to treat their problems as things in search of a solution.  They would come to me and say "X is wrong." and I would explain to them how to fix it.

Clearly, this is not what they were looking for, and they would find it very annoying that I would spend time trying to explain the patently obvious to them.  What they were actually looking for was some emotional reassurance while they sorted it out themselves, which they were perfectly capable of doing so, if only someone would give them a hug, and tell them it would all be ok.

My problem is that when people come to me with their problems, I take them on as my own.  If someone says "I can't do X." then I treat X as _my_ problem.  I care about X.  I worry about X.  I desparately want to get X sorted.  Knowing that X is out there, carrying on with it's wilful existence, makes me feel itchy and frankly I want it gone.

With some problems (other people's computers, for instance) this is fine - I can step in, fix the problem, receive a brief round of applause, and then relax.

Other problems, however, aren't so simple.  They involve emotional situations which _aren't in my head_.  They're in someone else's head, and no matter how much I want to lean over, flip open their head and fix the problem, I can't.  Which means I get more and more frustrated, because I've taken on this problem and I'm not allowed to fix it.  And then I make things worse by pressuring them to fix it, so that I can feel better again.

The question, then, is how to care about someone else's problem without taking ownership of it.  I can do that intellectually, but if I actually _emotionally_ care about someone's problem, then I get sucked back into this horrible situation again, pressuring them to fix their problem, so that I can feel better again.

Hmmmm.  Going to require more work, I think

Comments

[opusfluke.livejournal.com]

See my post called "Lucky White Heather" to see what I'm trying to handle for Lady Supervixen. In my experience it's best to give a hug and say "I'm a man and so am easily confused. Do you wish practical advice as well as this hug or just the hug?" Eventually it's taken on board that this is not a joke and "Just a hug and a rant" is my signal to disengage the Super Computer Brain for a while.

[octopoid-horror.livejournal.com]

"One of the many, many things I have done to annoy my various girlfriends is to treat their problems as things in search of a solution. They would come to me and say "X is wrong." and I would explain to them how to fix it."

By which you mean "explain to them how you think they should fix something which you don't understand and may not even be a real thing anyway and they weren't actually wanting help..."?

I advise being more like that handsome Patrick Bateman, or at the very least a cleric of the Tetragrammaton.

[odheirre.livejournal.com]

Read Deborah Tannen's stuff :-)

It's not as much "emotional reassurance" as simple intimacy -- closeness. By trying to "fix the problem," you're preventing that.

Which doesn't help.

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

Do you mean physically? Because *that* I can very much understand the need for. At most times, not just in times of upset. (but I'm really quite excessively physical, not everyone is like that I suppose?).

I am sure you are not saying that people get upset because they want closeness - but have to/seem to invent some other excuse/reason to try to inspire it? Are you? Why would they do that? Or maybe even they don't know and are doing it blind...

But to me, mental closeness would have to require a bit of the more problem-solving approach, as opposed to mindless reassurance - physical affection is more effective there. Isn't it?

[odheirre.livejournal.com]

I was thinking more emotionally. I actually have the Tannen book here, so I'll just quote from it (and she says earlier in the book, when she says "women", she is making a generalization that obviously doesn't fit all women, just a general trend).

"Trying to solve a problem or fix a trouble focuses on the message level of talk. But for most women who habitaully report problems at work or in friendships, the essage is not the main point of complaining. It's the meta message that counts: Telling about a problem is a bid for an expression of understanding ("I know how you feel") or a similar complaint ("I felt the same way when something similar happened to me"). In other words, troubles talk is intended to reinforce rapport by sending the metamessage "We're the same; you're not alone." Women are frustrated when they not only don't get this reinforcement but, quite the opposite, feel distanced by the advice, which seems to send the metamessage "We're not the same. You have the problems; I have the solutions."

In other words, say I'm telling my wife about a problem because she's been away all day and it's just small talk. The point isn't the actual conversation, the point is the fact that I'm communicating, I'm letting her be involved in my life. By relating a problem, I'm even belittling myself a bit -- losing status. If she "solves the problem," it puts us on an unequal footing, and distances herself from me, because, well, the problem is solved. This negates everything I was trying to do. If she "just emphathizes," relates how she had similar issues and how she solved it, it puts us on equal footing, lets me into her life, and in general furthers my goals for talking with her in the first place. Note -- both of these methods may fall into "solving the problem," but it's the way that it's done.

I guess I'd analyze the motivation behind the conversation -- is it because there's an actual "issue" the speaker is asking an opinion on, or is it because the speaker wants to vent, or is it because the mere act of talking and relaying his/her day is building rapport between the speaker and the other person?

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

*shakes head*

Oh I am aware that people are like this, I just have to keep reminding myself, because I really don't see/feel the point of all the circumlution. Seems like pointless gameplaying to me. Say what you mean and mean what you say! Leaving people to guess is already assuming that they are enough like you to be able to divine your 'real' intentions/feelings etc. by modelling it in *their* head - and this may well not be the case.

What practical good is 'just empathising'? Not being nasty, genuinely want to know. I can see it as a bit of a background thing, saying "I have been there before" may mean you can short-cut certain otherwise-necessary explanations - but that's not how you meant it, I don't think...

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

It's not *exclusively* a female thing, I don't suppose.

It seems connected to what we were talking about once about how people need the *form* of consideration and support even if they knew the substance was lacking. I just cannot understand that one at all, but I had to agree it was true.

I suppose people want you to care about *them* not see them as a series of problems, or as anything more functionally decomposed than the whole of themselves. Whereas you, and I, and many people of a similar mindset almost compulsive break things down into components and deal with them like that.

I really don't know, *I* don't think or feel that breaking something down and getting into more detail is a diminishment of anything (people, art, whatever), but rather an enhancement - but it is clear that many folks think/feel the opposite - I don't know why at all. Maybe that's it. Not eveyone is desperate to know the 'why' (and 'how') of things. greater understanding is greater enjoyment/appreciation for me...

[pickwick.livejournal.com]

I suppose people want you to care about *them* not see them as a series of problems, or as anything more functionally decomposed than the whole of themselves.

I don't think it's even that. I find it kind of odd that men get so confused about this, because I know men don't only talk about things they're happy with or that they need someone else to fix for them. If you get annoyed at other drivers, it doesn't help for me to say "If it upsets you like this, I think you should get rid of your car," or other ways to fix the "problem".

If I'm complaining, unless I specifically say something like "I don't know what to do about it," I'm just bitching. If someone starts trying to tell me what to do about it (especially if they're telling rather than offering suggestions) I generally feel patronised as hell. Partially because it is often a male/female thing, I think, which gives the impression that blokes think I need them to sort stuff out for me. But then, I'm stubborn, and won't let men help me build flat-pack furniture on principle, because they always think they know best :D

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

I rarely do 'just bitching'. Seriously, if I am annoyed about something I'd really, really, really rather it was fixed somehow - and I expect that it could be - at least theoretically, and probably by my own actions somehow - though it may not in fact be worth the cost in the end and so mayn to get done, but then again that is my decision isn't it? Under my control.

Maybe it is just my own monstrous arrogance.

Not to say that I haven't had my moments when I was younger - teens/early 20's, but I can't recall any real instances since then.

And plenty of men do 'just bitching'!

[birdofparadox.livejournal.com]

If you know you're "just bitching," though, why don't you communicate more effectively? Why not start your rambling with "I just need to vent, I'm not looking for solutions, just an ear..." I think part of the biggest problem between the sexes (other than gender role socialization) is that so many people (and it's women more than men) automagically assume that their motivations ought to be completely obvious to any half-wit they encounter. This is clearly not the case.

Unless the guy's a complete dolt, he'll likely pick up that you're just venting after a few times of being told. Getting pissed off and defensive because someone's trying to help is never going to help the situation. Even if a guy is laying out a plan of attack for your problem, 9 times out of 10, he's not trying to insult your intelligence. He's probably just trying to help, because he gives a damn.

[mglover.livejournal.com]

I can identify closely with Andrew's original post. If someone brings a problem to me, I try to solve it. That's what I do. I'm a problem solver. My job is all about coming up with solutions. I work sudoku puzzles while I wait for the elevator. This (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mglover/6556893/) is who I am.

Every fiber of my being is wired so that if you relate a problem, I assume that you're doing so with the expectation of assistance. When I try to solve it, I'm not trying to prove that I'm better, or smarter, or any other weirdo social manuvering because I just don't work that way. I don't do social manuvering. I solve because the problem is there.

If you present a problem and you just want commiseration, that's fine, but there's a fairly large subset of people that don't communicate that way. Presenting a problem to us isn't a prompt for empathy. If empathy is your desired response, you'll get better results by making that plain to us. You show me an equation and I solve for X because "solve for X" is implied. "Give me a hug" is never implied by an equation.

[birdofparadox.livejournal.com]

But you comply immediately when I ask for one.

This is exactly why I married you.

[andrewducker]

If you're a problem solver, why can't you solve the problem "What do women want when they tell us their problems?"

[andrewducker]

I suppose people want you to care about *them* not see them as a series of problems, or as anything more functionally decomposed than the whole of themselves.

You're thinking about this too much.

1) They have a problem.
2) They know how to fix the problem.
3) Having the problem stresses them out/makes them feel unhappy.
4) They want a hug, and some reassurance, so that they feel better (and possibly better enough to go deal with it).
5) Telling them The Answer just makes them feel patronised (see point 2). And doesn't solve the stress/unhappiness (see point 3).

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

You're thinking about this too much.

:-) can never have too much thought [well unless your life/physical wellbeing depends on action within a time limit, obviously :-) ]

Well why the hell not say "gah, this is stressing me out, come here an give me a hug cos that'll make me feel better for a bit"? Or just *do* it, go hug them and say nothing.

Only fixing the problem *actually* helps. Anything else is just putting a patch on it and covering it up for a while.

[communicator.livejournal.com]

I think you will do well in negotiating the emotional minefield, Andrew, because you use your analytical mind to keep thinking, keep considering the alternatives. Because you have good faith - you genuinely want them to work - and you are highly intelligent, I don't see how you can fail to build good relationships throughout your life.

I compare this with a person who might be very similar to you in abilities and strengths, but has decided that more emotional and instictive people are inferior. What a disadvatage that person has, becuase they don't even know what they don't know (if you see what I mean).

[andrewducker]

I don't see how you can fail to build good relationships throughout your life.

*waits for one of his ex girlfriends to die laughing at that statement*

(thanks for the reassurance though)

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

*startles*

I have mistrusted emotions my whole life. I have been contemptuous of even my *own* instances of following them most of my life (never mind anyone else's).

I know too much biology maybe, I am too reductionist in my thinking... I think I know what they are *for*, and I don't always want to play...

[communicator.livejournal.com]

Are you startled because you think I am criticising you? I don't mean to make anyone feel bad, I was just applauding Andrew's ongoing self-critical and analytical efforts. I don't think it's easy to keep saying 'I can see where I might have been going wrong'.

[opusfluke.livejournal.com]

I still say throwing your hands up and saying "I'm only a man hence easily confused" is the best policy. HAvig been with the same woman for twelve years it seems to work. Or maybe she just feels pity for me. The Y-Chromosone sems to bloke telepathy.

[channelpenguin.livejournal.com]

can't see me getting away with that one...

and despite being female (and straight) I do encounter it (or variants thereof).

[stormie.livejournal.com]

you fix computers! joy!

my laptop is very upset at the moment. can i bring it round sometime in exchange for fud of your choice?

[andrewducker]

Of course. I'm not promising anything, but I'll take a look.

[taromazzy.livejournal.com]

Why bother to emotionally care about a problem?
Why not care about the person and let them care about the problem?

You got the point that a person generally wants your support & backup in order that they can go out into the big bad world and sort it out themselves.

But by sorting out problems for people you teach them they can't and they will go to others for their solucitons the next time.

[opusfluke.livejournal.com]

Or just mutter "You think you got problems? The nightmares have started again. Think 'l just take the Black Dog for a walk."