andrewducker | Frustration part 1

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Frustration part 1

One of the many, many things I have done to annoy my various girlfriends is to treat their problems as things in search of a solution. They would come to me and say "X is wrong." and I would explain to them how to fix it.

Clearly, this is not what they were looking for, and they would find it very annoying that I would spend time trying to explain the patently obvious to them. What they were actually looking for was some emotional reassurance while they sorted it out themselves, which they were perfectly capable of doing so, if only someone would give them a hug, and tell them it would all be ok.

My problem is that when people come to me with their problems, I take them on as my own. If someone says "I can't do X." then I treat X as _my_ problem. I care about X. I worry about X. I desparately want to get X sorted. Knowing that X is out there, carrying on with it's wilful existence, makes me feel itchy and frankly I want it gone.

With some problems (other people's computers, for instance) this is fine - I can step in, fix the problem, receive a brief round of applause, and then relax.

Other problems, however, aren't so simple. They involve emotional situations which _aren't in my head_. They're in someone else's head, and no matter how much I want to lean over, flip open their head and fix the problem, I can't. Which means I get more and more frustrated, because I've taken on this problem and I'm not allowed to fix it. And then I make things worse by pressuring them to fix it, so that I can feel better again.

The question, then, is how to care about someone else's problem without taking ownership of it. I can do that intellectually, but if I actually _emotionally_ care about someone's problem, then I get sucked back into this horrible situation again, pressuring them to fix their problem, so that I can feel better again.

Hmmmm. Going to require more work, I think

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See my post called "Lucky White Heather" to see what I'm trying to handle for Lady Supervixen. In my experience it's best to give a hug and say "I'm a man and so am easily confused. Do you wish practical advice as well as this hug or just the hug?" Eventually it's taken on board that this is not a joke and "Just a hug and a rant" is my signal to disengage the Super Computer Brain for a while.

"One of the many, many things I have done to annoy my various girlfriends is to treat their problems as things in search of a solution. They would come to me and say "X is wrong." and I would explain to them how to fix it."

By which you mean "explain to them how you think they should fix something which you don't understand and may not even be a real thing anyway and they weren't actually wanting help..."?

I advise being more like that handsome Patrick Bateman, or at the very least a cleric of the Tetragrammaton.

Read Deborah Tannen's stuff :-)

It's not as much "emotional reassurance" as simple intimacy -- closeness. By trying to "fix the problem," you're preventing that.

Which doesn't help.

It's not *exclusively* a female thing, I don't suppose.

It seems connected to what we were talking about once about how people need the *form* of consideration and support even if they knew the substance was lacking. I just cannot understand that one at all, but I had to agree it was true.

I suppose people want you to care about *them* not see them as a series of problems, or as anything more functionally decomposed than the whole of themselves. Whereas you, and I, and many people of a similar mindset almost compulsive break things down into components and deal with them like that.

I really don't know, *I* don't think or feel that breaking something down and getting into more detail is a diminishment of anything (people, art, whatever), but rather an enhancement - but it is clear that many folks think/feel the opposite - I don't know why at all. Maybe that's it. Not eveyone is desperate to know the 'why' (and 'how') of things. greater understanding is greater enjoyment/appreciation for me...

Do you mean physically? Because *that* I can very much understand the need for. At most times, not just in times of upset. (but I'm really quite excessively physical, not everyone is like that I suppose?).

I am sure you are not saying that people get upset because they want closeness - but have to/seem to invent some other excuse/reason to try to inspire it? Are you? Why would they do that? Or maybe even they don't know and are doing it blind...

But to me, mental closeness would have to require a bit of the more problem-solving approach, as opposed to mindless reassurance - physical affection is more effective there. Isn't it?

I suppose people want you to care about *them* not see them as a series of problems, or as anything more functionally decomposed than the whole of themselves.

I don't think it's even that. I find it kind of odd that men get so confused about this, because I know men don't only talk about things they're happy with or that they need someone else to fix for them. If you get annoyed at other drivers, it doesn't help for me to say "If it upsets you like this, I think you should get rid of your car," or other ways to fix the "problem".

If I'm complaining, unless I specifically say something like "I don't know what to do about it," I'm just bitching. If someone starts trying to tell me what to do about it (especially if they're telling rather than offering suggestions) I generally feel patronised as hell. Partially because it is often a male/female thing, I think, which gives the impression that blokes think I need them to sort stuff out for me. But then, I'm stubborn, and won't let men help me build flat-pack furniture on principle, because they always think they know best :D

I think you will do well in negotiating the emotional minefield, Andrew, because you use your analytical mind to keep thinking, keep considering the alternatives. Because you have good faith - you genuinely want them to work - and you are highly intelligent, I don't see how you can fail to build good relationships throughout your life.

I compare this with a person who might be very similar to you in abilities and strengths, but has decided that more emotional and instictive people are inferior. What a disadvatage that person has, becuase they don't even know what they don't know (if you see what I mean).

I suppose people want you to care about *them* not see them as a series of problems, or as anything more functionally decomposed than the whole of themselves.

You're thinking about this too much.

1) They have a problem.
2) They know how to fix the problem.
3) Having the problem stresses them out/makes them feel unhappy.
4) They want a hug, and some reassurance, so that they feel better (and possibly better enough to go deal with it).
5) Telling them The Answer just makes them feel patronised (see point 2). And doesn't solve the stress/unhappiness (see point 3).

I don't see how you can fail to build good relationships throughout your life.

*waits for one of his ex girlfriends to die laughing at that statement*

(thanks for the reassurance though)

I rarely do 'just bitching'. Seriously, if I am annoyed about something I'd really, really, really rather it was fixed somehow - and I expect that it could be - at least theoretically, and probably by my own actions somehow - though it may not in fact be worth the cost in the end and so mayn to get done, but then again that is my decision isn't it? Under my control.

Maybe it is just my own monstrous arrogance.

Not to say that I haven't had my moments when I was younger - teens/early 20's, but I can't recall any real instances since then.

And plenty of men do 'just bitching'!

You're thinking about this too much.

:-) can never have too much thought [well unless your life/physical wellbeing depends on action within a time limit, obviously :-) ]

Well why the hell not say "gah, this is stressing me out, come here an give me a hug cos that'll make me feel better for a bit"? Or just *do* it, go hug them and say nothing.

Only fixing the problem *actually* helps. Anything else is just putting a patch on it and covering it up for a while.

1) When most people feel stressed they are unable to deal with problems that are going to cause _more_ stress. They need to calm down firt.
2) "gah, this is stressing me out, come here an give me a hug cos that'll make me feel better for a bit" - that's pretty much exactly what they do. Or has nobody ever complained at you for giving them solutions?

*startles*

I have mistrusted emotions my whole life. I have been contemptuous of even my *own* instances of following them most of my life (never mind anyone else's).

I know too much biology maybe, I am too reductionist in my thinking... I think I know what they are *for*, and I don't always want to play...

Are you startled because you think I am criticising you? I don't mean to make anyone feel bad, I was just applauding Andrew's ongoing self-critical and analytical efforts. I don't think it's easy to keep saying 'I can see where I might have been going wrong'.

1) Fair enough. I have learned that the only real answer is just to get on with the solution. So it doesn't much matter how you *feel*, just get on with what needs to be done! (that's pretty much a theme with my life though).

2) On occasion, yeah. More that we get into a loud argument about the proposed solution which also relieves the stress nicely in the end 9and may actually improve your ideas on what to do.)

I was thinking more emotionally. I actually have the Tannen book here, so I'll just quote from it (and she says earlier in the book, when she says "women", she is making a generalization that obviously doesn't fit all women, just a general trend).

"Trying to solve a problem or fix a trouble focuses on the message level of talk. But for most women who habitaully report problems at work or in friendships, the essage is not the main point of complaining. It's the meta message that counts: Telling about a problem is a bid for an expression of understanding ("I know how you feel") or a similar complaint ("I felt the same way when something similar happened to me"). In other words, troubles talk is intended to reinforce rapport by sending the metamessage "We're the same; you're not alone." Women are frustrated when they not only don't get this reinforcement but, quite the opposite, feel distanced by the advice, which seems to send the metamessage "We're not the same. You have the problems; I have the solutions."

In other words, say I'm telling my wife about a problem because she's been away all day and it's just small talk. The point isn't the actual conversation, the point is the fact that I'm communicating, I'm letting her be involved in my life. By relating a problem, I'm even belittling myself a bit -- losing status. If she "solves the problem," it puts us on an unequal footing, and distances herself from me, because, well, the problem is solved. This negates everything I was trying to do. If she "just emphathizes," relates how she had similar issues and how she solved it, it puts us on equal footing, lets me into her life, and in general furthers my goals for talking with her in the first place. Note -- both of these methods may fall into "solving the problem," but it's the way that it's done.

I guess I'd analyze the motivation behind the conversation -- is it because there's an actual "issue" the speaker is asking an opinion on, or is it because the speaker wants to vent, or is it because the mere act of talking and relaying his/her day is building rapport between the speaker and the other person?

*shakes head*

Oh I am aware that people are like this, I just have to keep reminding myself, because I really don't see/feel the point of all the circumlution. Seems like pointless gameplaying to me. Say what you mean and mean what you say! Leaving people to guess is already assuming that they are enough like you to be able to divine your 'real' intentions/feelings etc. by modelling it in *their* head - and this may well not be the case.

What practical good is 'just empathising'? Not being nasty, genuinely want to know. I can see it as a bit of a background thing, saying "I have been there before" may mean you can short-cut certain otherwise-necessary explanations - but that's not how you meant it, I don't think...

nah, just because your comment was so pertinent to myself. I'd probably fit the profile of

a person who might be very similar to you in abilities and strengths, but has decided that more emotional and instinctive people are inferior

pretty closely.

I don't think it's easy to keep saying 'I can see where I might have been going wrong'.

you see I can't see what else you'd do if you actually realised such a thing.

I still say throwing your hands up and saying "I'm only a man hence easily confused" is the best policy. HAvig been with the same woman for twelve years it seems to work. Or maybe she just feels pity for me. The Y-Chromosone sems to bloke telepathy.

My husband does this exact same thing: he attacks problems with a vengeance, and so when I want to complain and get a bit of sympathy/comiseration, he'll come in with guns blazing to fix the problem.

It used to bother me, but now I understand that his burning desire to FIX things... is his way of expressing his concern/care. He loves me, and he dislikes the situation, and wants me to be happy. Therefore, he must attack the problem.

Women who are into geeky guys need to realize that many of the things that make them so attractive, also make them somewhat removed. Their huge sexy brains make them natural problemsolvers. They also live in their head, and don't often make huge sweeping displays of affection. However, when they DO express emotion, it is sincere.

That's more than one can say for so very many charming men who smile and nod vapidly at whatever a woman's saying because they think if they look sympathetic and understanding, you'll eventually shut up and sleep with them.

That's more than one can say for so very many charming men who smile and nod vapidly at whatever a woman's saying because they think if they look sympathetic and understanding, you'll eventually shut up and sleep with them.

You mean you won't?

*changes tactics*

*see icon*

*falls off chair*

I really don't see/feel the point of all the circumlution.

It makes them feel happier.

Oh, and on this topic:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1329362959167995041

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Frustration part 1

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