A question of right and wrong
Jun. 19th, 2004 12:20 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
andrewduckerWhen you’re raised around something you sometimes completely fail to think about it at all. People absorb the world around them at an early age and generally assume that this is just how the world is, rarely questioning their basic assumptions. To give a trivial example, I must have been somewhere in my teens before I realised that the name New York implied that there had been an Old York. I was much, much older before I started questioning why I believed that certain things were morally right.
When I posted my question last week about people taking an objective point of view on what I considered to be entirely subjective areas, I expected more people to disagree that those areas were subjective. As it is, only![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
spidermonster and freemoore pointed out what they saw as a contradiction in my argument – that I was saying that there was no absolute right and wrong and that people who believed there were, were wrong. Surely if it’s all down to belief then I only _believe_ there’s no right and wrong?
My answer, of course, is no (I bet you’re all shocked).
It all boils down to what the words ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ mean, and how they mean different things in different contexts. Those three contexts are:
The first context is the easiest – abstract systems define internally whether things are true or not – in the system of mathematics, for instance, “2+2=4” is definitively a true statement while “2+3=4” is definitively not. Similarly, computer code either does what you want it to, or it doesn’t – there’s no middle ground.
The second context is theoretically as simple. All one has to do is compare the statement to reality and decide if the two match up. For instance - the statement “Andrew lives in Edinburgh” seems to be obviously true, while the statement “Andrew can Fly” seems to be obviously false. However, in real life there are always quibbling points – what if Andrew lives in Livingstone (a small town just outside Edinburgh proper) – some people might think of this as really part of Edinburgh, other people might not think of it that way all all If Andrew sleeps in Edinburgh, but works, drinks and dances in Glasgow, then where does he actually live? If Andrew straps on a jetpack, can he fly? How about if he gets on a plane? All of these complications come down to semantics, and once you agree on the meanings you are using you are then left with a system, which means that you can make definitive statement. Of course, reaching the agreement is not always so simple…
And all of that is assuming that we we are correct in the first place. Our senses are imperfect, causing us to make small mistakes on a frequent basis. The information coming in through our senses undergoes massive amounts of interpretation before it reaches our consciousness. In fact, studies have consistently shown that witnesses called to trials make assumptions, inaccurate observations, fill in blanks according to what they want to believe and are easily led into confusing what actually happened with what they are told happened.
However, the inaccuracies are generally not so large as to cause most people to lose contact with reality, and so we can at least be vaguely happy to make simple statements about the grosser, more obvious parts of the world. So “The cat sat on the mat” is semantically simple, concerns only gross physical matter and would be hard to be mistaken about, and so is likely to be a statement you can have confidence in. “The United States invaded Iraq to get cheaper oil.” is a somewhat more complex statement regarding the intention of complex entities, almost impossible to prove even if true, and therefore hard to have confidence in. “Contential Europe is different to the UK in fundamental ways.” is a statement so nebulous and undefined as to be able to cause arguments that go on for decades.
The third context is different to both of the above, and initially caused me the most trouble when sorting through this myself. What system could be used to tell when something was morally right? Well, there are a variety of moral systems (or systems with a strong moral content), from Libertarianism to Socialism to Christianity to Utilitarianism, and they tend to disagree with each other wildly. What method was there for deciding which one of these was the right one? Was there a meta-system that could be used to tell which system was more correct than the others? I had endless problems with this for months, trying to find some way of bringing it all together. If only I could do so, I could reduce this difficult question down to a version of the second one (or even the first), meaning that moral questions would be simple to answer.
The breakthrough happened when I tried to define what I actually meant by ‘right’ in this context. When I said that “Killing people is wrong.” What did I actually mean by that? And the answer hit me – what I meant was “I don’t like it when people are killed.” Or “Killing people produces a kind of society that I don’t like.”
Taking this on, I realised that all my moral beliefs basically boiled down to statements in that form. Either I didn’t like something in and of itself, or I didn’t like the effect it was going to have on my environment. This was a bit shocking. I mean, if the basis for my morals was what I didn’t like, then that gave me no right to impose it on others – my morals were no more right than anyone elses. For someone with severe hang-ups about being right, this was definitely a problem. However, I wasn’t able to find a way round it – I was stuck with either being right that all morals were merely subjective wants (which did, indeed, seem to be right), or claiming that my moral system was better than other people’s even though I couldn’t show it be so. Forced, eventually into taking the logical choice, I accepted that my morals were just my own personal wants.
There are, of course, numerous moral frameworks that can be built up – one can say that if everyone believes something is morally right, then surely this _effectively_ makes it morally right, and there’s a point to be made there. Although if public opinion later changes to the point where people hold different opinions, then you’ve lost your moral principle (and if you can find anything that every person on the planet agrees is morally right, I’ll eat my hat).
You can argue that morality stems from an omniscient creator, to which the obvious reply is – “Why is their opinion of my behaviour any more important than anyone elses?”, the standard response to which is “It just _is_.”, which I find less than satisfactory.
You can argue that certain behaviour is more natural than other behaviour, but the spectrum of behaviour found in nature is so wide that almost anything can be justified as being natural, in addition to which it’s hard to argue that people aren’t also part of nature.
And there’s a useful fall-back position of liberalism, where we agree that everyone’s morals are equally valid, and we should all be allowed to believe what we like. Except that this leaves you with no moral defense against people who think that female circumcision is a reasonable course of action.
My eventual point of view comes down to this: Objectively, my morals are no more right than any other moral system. However, I like mine a lot more than pretty much anyone elses and while I will compromise with the people around me, in order to achieve a quiet life and the general spread of happiness, I also have no reason to _not_ attempt to spread my morals, as there’s no absolute moral imperative to do so. I’d be happier if more people felt as I do, therefore it makes sense to achieve this, providing it doesn’t cause more harm than good to the wellbeing of the people I care about.
When I posted my question last week about people taking an objective point of view on what I considered to be entirely subjective areas, I expected more people to disagree that those areas were subjective. As it is, only
spidermonster and freemoore pointed out what they saw as a contradiction in my argument – that I was saying that there was no absolute right and wrong and that people who believed there were, were wrong. Surely if it’s all down to belief then I only _believe_ there’s no right and wrong?My answer, of course, is no (I bet you’re all shocked).
It all boils down to what the words ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ mean, and how they mean different things in different contexts. Those three contexts are:
- Statements regarding abstract systems.
- Statements about physical reality.
- Statements about the way people feel about things.
The first context is the easiest – abstract systems define internally whether things are true or not – in the system of mathematics, for instance, “2+2=4” is definitively a true statement while “2+3=4” is definitively not. Similarly, computer code either does what you want it to, or it doesn’t – there’s no middle ground.
The second context is theoretically as simple. All one has to do is compare the statement to reality and decide if the two match up. For instance - the statement “Andrew lives in Edinburgh” seems to be obviously true, while the statement “Andrew can Fly” seems to be obviously false. However, in real life there are always quibbling points – what if Andrew lives in Livingstone (a small town just outside Edinburgh proper) – some people might think of this as really part of Edinburgh, other people might not think of it that way all all If Andrew sleeps in Edinburgh, but works, drinks and dances in Glasgow, then where does he actually live? If Andrew straps on a jetpack, can he fly? How about if he gets on a plane? All of these complications come down to semantics, and once you agree on the meanings you are using you are then left with a system, which means that you can make definitive statement. Of course, reaching the agreement is not always so simple…
And all of that is assuming that we we are correct in the first place. Our senses are imperfect, causing us to make small mistakes on a frequent basis. The information coming in through our senses undergoes massive amounts of interpretation before it reaches our consciousness. In fact, studies have consistently shown that witnesses called to trials make assumptions, inaccurate observations, fill in blanks according to what they want to believe and are easily led into confusing what actually happened with what they are told happened.
However, the inaccuracies are generally not so large as to cause most people to lose contact with reality, and so we can at least be vaguely happy to make simple statements about the grosser, more obvious parts of the world. So “The cat sat on the mat” is semantically simple, concerns only gross physical matter and would be hard to be mistaken about, and so is likely to be a statement you can have confidence in. “The United States invaded Iraq to get cheaper oil.” is a somewhat more complex statement regarding the intention of complex entities, almost impossible to prove even if true, and therefore hard to have confidence in. “Contential Europe is different to the UK in fundamental ways.” is a statement so nebulous and undefined as to be able to cause arguments that go on for decades.
The third context is different to both of the above, and initially caused me the most trouble when sorting through this myself. What system could be used to tell when something was morally right? Well, there are a variety of moral systems (or systems with a strong moral content), from Libertarianism to Socialism to Christianity to Utilitarianism, and they tend to disagree with each other wildly. What method was there for deciding which one of these was the right one? Was there a meta-system that could be used to tell which system was more correct than the others? I had endless problems with this for months, trying to find some way of bringing it all together. If only I could do so, I could reduce this difficult question down to a version of the second one (or even the first), meaning that moral questions would be simple to answer.
The breakthrough happened when I tried to define what I actually meant by ‘right’ in this context. When I said that “Killing people is wrong.” What did I actually mean by that? And the answer hit me – what I meant was “I don’t like it when people are killed.” Or “Killing people produces a kind of society that I don’t like.”
Taking this on, I realised that all my moral beliefs basically boiled down to statements in that form. Either I didn’t like something in and of itself, or I didn’t like the effect it was going to have on my environment. This was a bit shocking. I mean, if the basis for my morals was what I didn’t like, then that gave me no right to impose it on others – my morals were no more right than anyone elses. For someone with severe hang-ups about being right, this was definitely a problem. However, I wasn’t able to find a way round it – I was stuck with either being right that all morals were merely subjective wants (which did, indeed, seem to be right), or claiming that my moral system was better than other people’s even though I couldn’t show it be so. Forced, eventually into taking the logical choice, I accepted that my morals were just my own personal wants.
There are, of course, numerous moral frameworks that can be built up – one can say that if everyone believes something is morally right, then surely this _effectively_ makes it morally right, and there’s a point to be made there. Although if public opinion later changes to the point where people hold different opinions, then you’ve lost your moral principle (and if you can find anything that every person on the planet agrees is morally right, I’ll eat my hat).
You can argue that morality stems from an omniscient creator, to which the obvious reply is – “Why is their opinion of my behaviour any more important than anyone elses?”, the standard response to which is “It just _is_.”, which I find less than satisfactory.
You can argue that certain behaviour is more natural than other behaviour, but the spectrum of behaviour found in nature is so wide that almost anything can be justified as being natural, in addition to which it’s hard to argue that people aren’t also part of nature.
And there’s a useful fall-back position of liberalism, where we agree that everyone’s morals are equally valid, and we should all be allowed to believe what we like. Except that this leaves you with no moral defense against people who think that female circumcision is a reasonable course of action.
My eventual point of view comes down to this: Objectively, my morals are no more right than any other moral system. However, I like mine a lot more than pretty much anyone elses and while I will compromise with the people around me, in order to achieve a quiet life and the general spread of happiness, I also have no reason to _not_ attempt to spread my morals, as there’s no absolute moral imperative to do so. I’d be happier if more people felt as I do, therefore it makes sense to achieve this, providing it doesn’t cause more harm than good to the wellbeing of the people I care about.
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no subject
Date: 2004-06-19 06:04 am (UTC)I don't think that goes far enough, as it ignores empathy - the ability to think yourself into somebody elses shoes - to know what they would and wouldn't like (in some cases.) Meaning it's quite possible not to care two hoots if person X is killed, or even to want them killed, but to know for sure they wouldn't want to be killed and for that reason alone believe they shouldn't be killed.
no subject
no subject
Date: 2004-06-19 07:34 am (UTC)For example, by the standards you have set, a "Hello world" program that looped through the entire ASCII character set until it reached the appropriate number as delineated in an array and then printed it could not be said to be wrong, since it works.
Likewise, I frequently use right and wrong in the concept of personal morality, but mainly because I don't believe that System X is one that leads the most people to enlightenment, safety, and personal peace.
Right and wrong can also be shorthand for, "That doesn't work as well as the other options, and works so poorly its inefficiency is almost crippling." That's how I usually use it.
Moral system?
Date: 2004-06-19 10:07 am (UTC)Re: Moral system?
Date: 2004-06-19 11:06 am (UTC)After all, I'm a person, not a computer.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-19 11:59 am (UTC)Additionally, most people as individuals find the idea of killing someone totally horrifying and would be psychologically unable to do it even in very extreme circumstances.
We do hit a snag with the consensus on other rules, though.
All the Judeo-Christian religions insist that adultery is bad, for example.
However, the compliance rate for that is considerably lower. Something like 70% of nominally monogamous people are not actually monogamous in practice.
This contradiction can be explained by looking at changing social circumstances since the rules were made.
Marital fidelity is vital to survival where people live in a harsh environment with few resources and need their extended family to support them through their lives. Therefore rules made sense at the time at which they were written.
In modern society, however, especially where women have the potential to earn their own money, infidelity matters less. It may cause hideous emotional pain, but it won't cause you and your children to be cast out of the family to die alone in the wilderness.
By contrast, there hasn't been a change in society in the last several millenia which makes killing acceptable, so that rule still stands and is still almost universally obeyed.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-19 12:03 pm (UTC)Can I move there please, because mine's _terrible_ for that. People on my planet are constantly killing thousands of each other over completely trivial, fictitious or deranged reasons and then claiming they were morally right to do so.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-19 12:17 pm (UTC)Soldiers kill, but they have to be put through a lot of special training in order for them to be capable of doing so.
Yes, there are huge glitches in the no-killing system, mostly caused when someone in the small percentage of the population who lack the normal moral apparatus of humanity reaching a position of power.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-19 12:23 pm (UTC)The Stanford Prison Experiment was certainly enough of a confirmation of that - make your average person feel that someone else is less than them for more than a few days and they start to feel that the other person isn't human at all.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-19 12:36 pm (UTC)And "because they wouldn't want it to happen to them" is not a good reason to not do something to someone, in all cases. I'm sure, for instance, that criminals don't want to go to jail.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-19 02:45 pm (UTC)Aah. That's where I usually use the word 'shit'.
As in "Who wrote this fucking piece of shit - it's looping through everything backwards and there's no a comment to be seen!"
no subject
Date: 2004-06-19 04:43 pm (UTC)Morality requires empathy. I read once about someone watching a group of chimps eat a small monkey, which they started to do while it was still alive. Now they showed no apparent concern or interest in the fact that what they were eating was squirming and screaming. Were they behaving immorally? Of course not - they just didn't have the knowledge to know what they were doing to the monkey was causing it pain like they felt pain. Not a concept in their mindset - no empathy. Many people would consider it wrong to eat animals alive though.
And yes, some people don't seem to show any empathy, while others seem to extend it to plant-life and beyond. Is it something we're born with or something we learn? I suspect the latter, but a lot of us do have it.
But anyway, I'd argue eating monkeys while they're still alive is an immoral thing for a human to do, because I know that most humans would know it's hurting the monkey. And I'm quite happy for that morality to be forced on other humans who don't agree with it. Morality is not just a me thing.
(And yes, I know there's exceptions where some might consider it's OK to eat the monkey - such as when they'd die if they didn't. I'm not thinking of those cases here.)
no subject
Date: 2004-06-20 02:26 am (UTC)I disagree. Christian morality, for instance, merely requires you to follow a set of rules.
Your morality requires empathy, but that's based on the idea that hurting others is wrong. Other people have moralities that aren't based on that idea.
Personally, I'm largely with you - hurting other people is something I avoid wherever possible.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-20 05:39 am (UTC)http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=define%3A+morality&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
"concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct"
Nothing about following rules there.
As to empathy and morality, consider a man in a totally empty room who's going to die soon, as it's an air-tight room and he'll soon run out of oxygen. What moral principles should he follow in his last hours? I'd say it makes no difference. That is, it makes no difference as long as he assumes his body and the room will never be found. If he does think they'll be discovered though, then it may make a difference, as he may consider what the people who discover him will think. So what he does may be effected by how he thinks others may think - ie, empathy. And if he considers he's doing what's the right thing to do in his situation, the trigger was empathy.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-20 05:42 am (UTC)Empathy is _one_ way of approaching morality. But it's not universal by any means. Many moral systems involve doing the prescribed right thing for otehr people, even if it's something they _don't_ want.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-20 02:10 pm (UTC)If you believe morality means a doctrine or set of rules, then I don't think you've a mainstream idea of what the word means. Perhaps you should do a poll on it?
And all empathy means is you're able to have an understanding of how they're thinking. They might want to commit suicide and you can fully understand why, but your view of what's right and wrong may mean you'll try to prevent them. Or, alternatively, try to help them.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-21 03:08 am (UTC)I have never met another person who also inherently understood, through there own observations and conclusions the way things truly are.
Doug.