Thought of the morning

[andrewducker]

[Poll #1436633]

Comments

[andrewducker]

The first one definitely is (in my opinion) - but I'm really not sure about numbers 2 and 3. You're taking a sex act largely performed by gay men and using it as a swearword/negative term - which sounds like it _should_ be homophobic. But I've never heard anyone refer to it as such. Plus, of course, pretty much all kinds of sexual words are used for swearing, which evens the scales somewhat.

Oh, and for some reason "Bugger" is vastly less offensive than "Fuck" in the UK. Never really understood that one...

[hawkida.livejournal.com]

I've never read "bummer" in that context. How about "a bum deal"? I thought it was pretty much the same as shouting "arse" - sure the buttocks/anus are implicated but there's no sexual reference.

I'm not filling in the poll because I'm undecided on it all. I think all of them, even "that's so gay" have become such common parlance that the possibly homophobic intent is not in the minds of most people who use them, but I'm not sure that's a good excuse. I avoid "gay" in that way, just don't tend to say "bummer" at all, and have been known to say "bugger" when things go pear shaped.

[henriksdal.livejournal.com]

regarding Bugger, you're getting into etymology of it being a very old word, and why very old words (which are Anglo Saxon? I think? Someone else will know) aren't allowed because the Normans didn't like them. Bummer, if I recall correctly, is an American term and nothing at all to do with Buggery.

Gay in that context is just homophobic.

[andrewducker]

Yup - when the Normans took over the Saxon language was only used by serfs, and thus any words in it are automatically more offensive than ones in French.

And "Bummer" was definitely slang for "gay man" in the playground when I was a kid.

[henriksdal.livejournal.com]

Aye, I call Will a "bummer" all the time, but my mind very clearly relates that as a different word to when someone says "that's a bummer" as one is from arse, and the other is from hobos in America.

I once got the silent treatment for a long, long time because I referred to someone as "a cracker" This made me an abhorrent racist. Took me f*cking ages to work out why, and apologise...

[henriksdal.livejournal.com]

AND ANOTHER THING why are you automatically associating anal sex with homosexuality? Don't the filthy breeders do it too?

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Because the only time people get referred to as buggers or bummers meaning anything sexual is when it means "gay man". The cultural association is definitely gay.

That said, I don't want my consciousness raised on this one as I love the word "bugger" so much.

[andrewducker]

I don't want my consciousness raised on this one
me too

[poisonduk.livejournal.com]

Oooo filthy breeders! That's heterophobic!

[recycled-sales.livejournal.com]

It's quite apt reading this so soon after your aspergers post that talked about intention.

At no point would I intend any use of those terms to be homophobic, in the same way that saying "fuck" isn't supposed to associate an event with sex (especially since I'll usually shout the f-word out when I've hurt myself) ;)

[call-waiting.livejournal.com]

I was completely unaware of any relationship between the common usages of the word 'bummer' and the use of the word 'bum' as a verb.

[kurosau.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if it's different in the UK, but I don't believe the etymology of bummer has anything to do with anal sex, someone's butt, or homosexual behavior. There are all sorts of explanations for where it comes from, but what I'm most familiar is the idea that you get bummed out, it's a bummer. That it has something to do with that beaten down and blah, bad experience kinda thing you could associate with bums and the like.

[andrewducker]

Yeah - looks like it's different in America - where it's from "bum" which is from "to loaf" in German - referring to people begging for money.

I suspect we picked up "That's a bummer" from there, but some part of the UK (at least) also use it as slang for a gay person.

[elettaria.livejournal.com]

Well, "bumph", also spelt "bumf", comes from "bum fodder" (poor quality printed matter used as toilet paper), and that one's Victorian. I'd expect "bummer" to be something to do with arses, yes.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

In the US at least, "bugger off" is simultaneously a Britishism and also very much related to gay sex. OTOH, it never occurred to me that bummer had any such connotation - I assumed it was like "bum deal", and came into common use when the term bum was commonly used to refer to homeless people.

Then again, I was also in my late 20s when I figured out that "to welsh on a bet" was anti-Welsh (a fact made more difficult, because in much (perhaps most) of the US, it's pronounced "Welch".

[andrewducker]

You would be correct. It is from the German "Bummler" meaning "One who loafs". I hadn't realised that :->

[aliiis.livejournal.com]

I think there is a difference between 'homophobic' per se, and inappropriate/potentially alienating or perpetuating negativity. Y/Y?

[meihua.livejournal.com]

The same word's actually used for both - like "racist", "racially prejudiced" and "racially alienating behaviour". Context, as always, matters...

[khbrown.livejournal.com]

At school we would refer to two male friends as "bum chums" in a way that was, retrospectively, vaguely homophobic.

[poisonduk.livejournal.com]

Would that also then apply to Bosom Buddies for female friends?

[ninebelow.livejournal.com]

I find it hard to believe you didn't know this at the time. Homophobic insults are stock in trade for school kids.

Since no-one is complaining about the construction of the poll

[ninebelow.livejournal.com]

"Silly sod!"

Re: Since no-one is complaining about the construction of the poll

[andrewducker]

Ha!

It does intrigue me that insults based on buggery are somehow less offensive than ones based on PIV sex.

[zz]

i never started using "gay" to mean bad until someone mentioned how much they hated people using it for that purpose, years ago. :>

i like to think i'm repurposing/reclaiming it, just like it was already repurposed from "cheerful/etc", and that the bad meaning and homosexual meaning don't have to be connected (any more).

but then half the time i just don't understand why people find specific things offensive, and the other half i actively enjoy pushing buttons (especially if i consider them irrational)... :)

[laserboy.livejournal.com]

It's all contextual and I've been in situations when "innocent" words have been used as coded insults.

That said "gay" used negatively is horribly offensive and upsets me if it happens around me in conversation. To me, and this is personal, it feels like someone saying the word "nigger". It's just vile.