The first one definitely is (in my opinion) - but I'm really not sure about numbers 2 and 3. You're taking a sex act largely performed by gay men and using it as a swearword/negative term - which sounds like it _should_ be homophobic. But I've never heard anyone refer to it as such. Plus, of course, pretty much all kinds of sexual words are used for swearing, which evens the scales somewhat.
Oh, and for some reason "Bugger" is vastly less offensive than "Fuck" in the UK. Never really understood that one...
I've never read "bummer" in that context. How about "a bum deal"? I thought it was pretty much the same as shouting "arse" - sure the buttocks/anus are implicated but there's no sexual reference.
I'm not filling in the poll because I'm undecided on it all. I think all of them, even "that's so gay" have become such common parlance that the possibly homophobic intent is not in the minds of most people who use them, but I'm not sure that's a good excuse. I avoid "gay" in that way, just don't tend to say "bummer" at all, and have been known to say "bugger" when things go pear shaped.
regarding Bugger, you're getting into etymology of it being a very old word, and why very old words (which are Anglo Saxon? I think? Someone else will know) aren't allowed because the Normans didn't like them. Bummer, if I recall correctly, is an American term and nothing at all to do with Buggery.
Yup - when the Normans took over the Saxon language was only used by serfs, and thus any words in it are automatically more offensive than ones in French.
And "Bummer" was definitely slang for "gay man" in the playground when I was a kid.
Aye, I call Will a "bummer" all the time, but my mind very clearly relates that as a different word to when someone says "that's a bummer" as one is from arse, and the other is from hobos in America.
I once got the silent treatment for a long, long time because I referred to someone as "a cracker" This made me an abhorrent racist. Took me f*cking ages to work out why, and apologise...
well yes, it's technically Yorkshire dialect for a good thing, as in "Cracking cheese Grommit!"
Which just goes to show.. somethinig.. about language and cultures. Paky shop is the slang term for corner shops somewhere like New England (? I think?), and most people there are completely unaware of any racial connections with the word. I can't find an internet link to this, as I just did a google and the results were vastly unpleasant.
I grew up in Ayrshire and both Paki Shop and Chinky are in common usage. Yet neither has any racist implications in that area.
I can't deny that they probably did originally, and for sure in many parts of the country they would cause massive offense, but the words have evolved in the locale to the point that the Chinese Takeaway in the village answered their own phone with the words "XXXXX Chinky" and when people use the phrase Paki Shop it means any sort of corner store, no matter that ethnic origin of the owners/staff. Even those owned by Scotsmen are called Paki Shops.
I'm not going to defend this language, but it is used by pretty much everyone who lives there.
There is no "probably" about it and "originally" isn't some point lost in the mists of times, it is a couple of decades ago (at most). That is to say within the living memory of a large number of people. So it is disengenuous to say it has magically evolved beyond having any racist implications, even if the current situation you describe is true.
*nods* Yes, at my inner London secondary school people whose families were from Pakistan called them 'paki shops' (and everyone else did too) - a lot of the black students called each other 'nigger', but nobody white ever did, in the same way that I can call my girlfriend a 'filthy queer' or whatever in jest if I want but all the straight people can leave that one well alone, thank you very much. I've never heard Chinky used non-racistly here.
There was also George Bush's usage of it. It seems to be in America (and India) that it is a friendly abbreviation like Brit. Unfortunately this is not the case in the UK.
A few years ago I was wandering around Edinburgh with an American friend (from New England, I think) who made reference to the 'paki shop' and then asked, "Wait, what's it called? Paki shop? Packing shop? Why do they call it that?" I said, "Um, they call it that because it's a racial slur." She was mortified. Anyway, the term seemed to be new to her.
It's only barely offensive in American English, as few people know what it means and those know it mostly intellectually. It's not commonly used and I daresay most Americans wouldn't be able to define it except as a thin salty bread product. Honky or whitey would be more commonly known, but most wouldn't take it as an insult, and ofay is just flat out unknown these days.
In short, it's awfully hard to offend a white person in America by calling them white.
Maybe that's different depending on where you are in the USA? I know in Mississippi, "cracker" and "honky" are still both seen as extremely offensive to white people. (More so to older folk, but I've seen teens highly upset about usage too.)
"Ofay" is pretty much unknown around here also. I have vague recollections of hearing it spoken, but I can't recall when or by whom.
I suppose so. I've lived in lots of places in the US, and I currently live in Texas, but Texas isn't really Southern, despite our stance in the War between the States and our relative position to the Mason Dixon line.
Maybe it is more offensive in the parts of the US that are officially "deep South"?
Because the only time people get referred to as buggers or bummers meaning anything sexual is when it means "gay man". The cultural association is definitely gay.
That said, I don't want my consciousness raised on this one as I love the word "bugger" so much.
and some of us manage to mess up those great lengths and count every day for the next 18 years till they can foist that mistake off into the big bad world to become their own dirty breeder!
It's quite apt reading this so soon after your aspergers post that talked about intention.
At no point would I intend any use of those terms to be homophobic, in the same way that saying "fuck" isn't supposed to associate an event with sex (especially since I'll usually shout the f-word out when I've hurt myself) ;)
Yeah, I've always associated it with being "a bit crap", or as others have said "a bum deal".
Insults rarely make much sense, to read into something which is simply an exclamation really doesn't work out. If I was to shout out "HRRRFFFFRRR" when I was angry then I'm sure someone could find meaning in there.
Hmm, that's a good question. If you did use the term "Jew" in that way, then it'd theoretically match with the first point on your list (Gay).
That said, it does seem like a slightly redundant term to use here. Saying it feels a bit like saying "fanny". For me the term lacks any associated meaning other than the original. Whereas bummer or bugger can hold two meanings depending on the context.
Dang, see what happens when you try to work things out ;)
I'm not sure if it's different in the UK, but I don't believe the etymology of bummer has anything to do with anal sex, someone's butt, or homosexual behavior. There are all sorts of explanations for where it comes from, but what I'm most familiar is the idea that you get bummed out, it's a bummer. That it has something to do with that beaten down and blah, bad experience kinda thing you could associate with bums and the like.
I'm not sure what is confusing you so much. There are two seperate words here - "bummer" meaning "downer" and "bummer" meaning "one who bums" - with two seperate etymologies. Both are common and both are unrelated.
Well, "bumph", also spelt "bumf", comes from "bum fodder" (poor quality printed matter used as toilet paper), and that one's Victorian. I'd expect "bummer" to be something to do with arses, yes.
In the US at least, "bugger off" is simultaneously a Britishism and also very much related to gay sex. OTOH, it never occurred to me that bummer had any such connotation - I assumed it was like "bum deal", and came into common use when the term bum was commonly used to refer to homeless people.
Then again, I was also in my late 20s when I figured out that "to welsh on a bet" was anti-Welsh (a fact made more difficult, because in much (perhaps most) of the US, it's pronounced "Welch".
But, without looking at that history, I would tend to say bosom = breast / chest and was gender neutral; we need input from females who used or did not use bum chum or bosom buddy.
Not convinced that that is either true or that Pulp Fiction had that much influence. I can guarantee that if I went up to most people and called them a motherfucker they would not think I was calling them a badass. Obviously you can use it as a friendly greeting (like all swear words) but that doesn't change its general meeting.
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i never started using "gay" to mean bad until someone mentioned how much they hated people using it for that purpose, years ago. :>
i like to think i'm repurposing/reclaiming it, just like it was already repurposed from "cheerful/etc", and that the bad meaning and homosexual meaning don't have to be connected (any more).
but then half the time i just don't understand why people find specific things offensive, and the other half i actively enjoy pushing buttons (especially if i consider them irrational)... :)
It's all contextual and I've been in situations when "innocent" words have been used as coded insults.
That said "gay" used negatively is horribly offensive and upsets me if it happens around me in conversation. To me, and this is personal, it feels like someone saying the word "nigger". It's just vile.
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Oh, and for some reason "Bugger" is vastly less offensive than "Fuck" in the UK. Never really understood that one...
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I'm not filling in the poll because I'm undecided on it all. I think all of them, even "that's so gay" have become such common parlance that the possibly homophobic intent is not in the minds of most people who use them, but I'm not sure that's a good excuse. I avoid "gay" in that way, just don't tend to say "bummer" at all, and have been known to say "bugger" when things go pear shaped.
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Gay in that context is just homophobic.
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And "Bummer" was definitely slang for "gay man" in the playground when I was a kid.
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I once got the silent treatment for a long, long time because I referred to someone as "a cracker" This made me an abhorrent racist. Took me f*cking ages to work out why, and apologise...
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Which just goes to show.. somethinig.. about language and cultures. Paky shop is the slang term for corner shops somewhere like New England (? I think?), and most people there are completely unaware of any racial connections with the word. I can't find an internet link to this, as I just did a google and the results were vastly unpleasant.
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I can't deny that they probably did originally, and for sure in many parts of the country they would cause massive offense, but the words have evolved in the locale to the point that the Chinese Takeaway in the village answered their own phone with the words "XXXXX Chinky" and when people use the phrase Paki Shop it means any sort of corner store, no matter that ethnic origin of the owners/staff. Even those owned by Scotsmen are called Paki Shops.
I'm not going to defend this language, but it is used by pretty much everyone who lives there.
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and the others just don't know why calling 'a chinky a chinky' is racist.
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There is no "probably" about it and "originally" isn't some point lost in the mists of times, it is a couple of decades ago (at most). That is to say within the living memory of a large number of people. So it is disengenuous to say it has magically evolved beyond having any racist implications, even if the current situation you describe is true.
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In short, it's awfully hard to offend a white person in America by calling them white.
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"Ofay" is pretty much unknown around here also. I have vague recollections of hearing it spoken, but I can't recall when or by whom.
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Maybe it is more offensive in the parts of the US that are officially "deep South"?
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That said, I don't want my consciousness raised on this one as I love the word "bugger" so much.
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me too
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JHR: "... and it hurt like buggery."
WGF: "Well, if you've got a half-hour, you could find out for yourself..."
JHR: (Goldfish impressions)
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At no point would I intend any use of those terms to be homophobic, in the same way that saying "fuck" isn't supposed to associate an event with sex (especially since I'll usually shout the f-word out when I've hurt myself) ;)
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"Get off me, you bummer."
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Insults rarely make much sense, to read into something which is simply an exclamation really doesn't work out. If I was to shout out "HRRRFFFFRRR" when I was angry then I'm sure someone could find meaning in there.
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"The third Matrix film was completely Jewish."
"I was totally jewed by the election results in Norwich."
would that seem to be lacking in meaning too?
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That said, it does seem like a slightly redundant term to use here. Saying it feels a bit like saying "fanny". For me the term lacks any associated meaning other than the original. Whereas bummer or bugger can hold two meanings depending on the context.
Dang, see what happens when you try to work things out ;)
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I suspect we picked up "That's a bummer" from there, but some part of the UK (at least) also use it as slang for a gay person.
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Then again, I was also in my late 20s when I figured out that "to welsh on a bet" was anti-Welsh (a fact made more difficult, because in much (perhaps most) of the US, it's pronounced "Welch".
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But, without looking at that history, I would tend to say bosom = breast / chest and was gender neutral; we need input from females who used or did not use bum chum or bosom buddy.
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I and a friend were referred to as bum chums, but there was never any ovbious homosexual aspect as far as I remember.
I did go to a quite progressive school, albeit one under Clause 28.
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It does intrigue me that insults based on buggery are somehow less offensive than ones based on PIV sex.
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i like to think i'm repurposing/reclaiming it, just like it was already repurposed from "cheerful/etc", and that the bad meaning and homosexual meaning don't have to be connected (any more).
but then half the time i just don't understand why people find specific things offensive, and the other half i actively enjoy pushing buttons (especially if i consider them irrational)... :)
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That said "gay" used negatively is horribly offensive and upsets me if it happens around me in conversation. To me, and this is personal, it feels like someone saying the word "nigger". It's just vile.