The "tone" argument

[andrewducker]

Edit:Thank you to everyone for the comments left on this piece. I've learned a lot from a variety of you. I am trying to engage with people who are trying to educate me, and I appreciate you taking the time and effort to do so. I do appreciate that this is a large and complex issue, and if I'd known that it was going to be spread over half of LJ I'd probably have thought about it for more than 30 seconds before writing it.

I've now had it pointed out to me by several people that there's no point asking people to be polite when they're discussing things on the internet - because the tone they take doesn't actually affect how people's views are taken.

The most recent time I was linked to this post, which is well written, amusing, and completely failed to make its point to me.  Their point was that speaking politely doesn't work.  That people have tried speaking politely, and got nowhere.

My point is that they offer absolutely no evidence that shouting _does_ work.  And in my experience, shouting pushes people away more than anything else.

I don't have a racism example, because I've not been accused of racism.  However, I have been accused of sexism.  And I'm fairly sure that I have been sexist - but the way that I was approached managed to both shut off any chance that I was going to listen to what the person was saying, but also caused a few other people to feel disgusted at what they were saying.  It caused people to speak negatively of "feminists" - something I had to then try and correct (what with being one myself).

If someone has evidence that shouting at bigots actually achieves any good then I would be very happy to hear it.  Provided that it's presented to me in a reasonable, non-offensive manner.  I may even change my mind :->

Comments

[meihua.livejournal.com]

Their point isn't quite that "speaking politely doesn't work". It's more like this:

Let's say you're an expert on Fooage. You and a bunch of other experts on fooage (You and your friends haven't always been experts on Foo. You had to work hard to get where you are, it took years of study)are at Foo09 and discussing all things foo-related, including the Great Foo Paradox, which continues to be a fascinating topic of discussion. Actually, it's a big deal - people are suffering every day because this topic isn't solved. If it could just be resolved, there would be a lot less human suffering.

Unfortunately, there's a constant stream of people wandering in from another conference next door. They don't know jack about the complex world of Fooery, but every damn one of them has an opinion on the Great Foo Paradox. Those opinions range from, "Ahh, that paradox doesn't really exist", or, "You're wasting your time debating the Great Foo Paradox. Why didn't you donate the money it cost you to attend this conference to charity instead, or do something useful with your life?".

And every damn one of them is really rude about it! They walk into the room and act like they know all about Fooery, that it's obvious, and you're just some idiot ivory-tower acadamic whose opinion isn't even worth listening to.

You "speak politely" to the first few. Well, you do. A few of your friends are understandably pissed off; but you take the clueless newbies aside and explain why Foo's a big deal. Mostly, they ignore you and keep on arguing, but a couple do get it. You're encouraged.

Maybe you even put a FAQ together. "Some of your basic Foo questions answered, and why the Foo Paradox is a big deal." You give it to each of the newbies.

Let's say they don't read it. In fact, they hang around during the conference, and keep interrupting with questions which derail the conference. It gets to the point where most of the discussions end up getting nowhere, because you spend most of your time answering the same questions, or trying to calm down your colleagues and get them not to respond, or you don't even take part in the discussions because you're too busy handing out FAQs in the foyer.

Eventually, you're going to stop "speaking politely", I'd hope, and tell them to PISS OFF.

SHUT UP

[cdave]

your wrong, your wrong, your wrong, your wrong, your wrong, your wrong, your wrong, your wrong, your wrong, your wrong

Your's Scinserely,

[meihua.livejournal.com]

Or, put another way: People don't shout at bigots because they think "it will work".

They shout at bigots because they are offended, insulted and tired of being trolled by bigots. It's a cumulative annoyance, and it has built up over decades. It's tricky to understand unless you're on the unprivileged side of one of the Big Privilege Issues.

[andrewducker]

Quite possibly.

And I'm not saying that people don't have the right to get angry.

I'm merely saying that it isn't _productive_, if your aim is to get other people to change their minds.

If your aim is to make yourself feel better, or push away people that you don't want about, then go right ahead.

[andrewducker]

Oh, I know that.

I just don't want them shouting at me because I happen to wander past, or have an opinion that reminds them of something they once heard someone evil say.

And every time I raise this, I'm told that "Speaking politely doesn't work." - this is my response, that speaking impolitely doesn't work either.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

I'm merely saying that it isn't _productive_, if your aim is to get other people to change their minds.

Bingo. That isn't always the aim, or even among the top five.

[andrewducker]

And when the aim is to vent, and it's aimed at me in a manner I consider unfair, then I don't see why I should be polite or understanding. Which is what I was told I should be, elsewhere.

[meihua.livejournal.com]

*nods* It sounds like you pretty much get it. :)

I just don't want them shouting at me because...

I dunno about this.

I'm assuming here that you're not a bigot, ok? Please don't take the below as some sly way for me to imply that you are, that's not what I'm getting at all.

It's unfortunate that the line taken by most bigots is, "Hey, I'm not a bigot, don't treat me like one!" ("Hey, I'm not racist! Some of my best friends are black!").

And, of the people who jump into these arguments, an overwhelming number are unfortunately bigots!

It takes time and effort to distinguish the few non-bigots. By walking in there and saying, "I'm not a bigot, please don't treat me like one", you're demanding energy from people who are already sick and tired - you're saying, "Spend some energy on validating my claim of non-bigotry so that I can participate in this discussion!".

Maybe it's not fair for you to demand that.

[meihua.livejournal.com]

Oh, by the way - I'm someone with a pretty limited understanding of the tone argument. I'm trying to represent it as best as I can. I may be wrong about it in some ways. Please don't take what I'm saying as gospel! :)

[rhythmaning.livejournal.com]

Shouting doesn't work at all. But it can be quite fun...

More seriously, I think shouting is actually detrimental to rational argument. If you have to shout to put your point across, what you have to say can't be very strong.

[andrewducker]

I, too, have other things that take up my time and effort. Maybe it's not fair for them to demand that I put up with shouting from them because they've assumed I'm a bigot?

[andrewducker]

It's ok, I'm not :->

[meihua.livejournal.com]

I might have missed the start of this debate... I've been assuming that you walked into an environment where a debate on racism was taking place, or that you've made a post which somehow "jumped into the middle" of an existing debate.

If that is the case, then I think it's incumbent on you to ask yourself:

1. How would a clueness newbie or a bigot act in this situation?

2. How can I make the way I am acting least resemble 1?

Often, the answer to 2 is not to jump into the debate.

[kurosau.livejournal.com]

I think it's much better to just say that tone is really hard to get across on the internet.

[captainlucy.livejournal.com]

Shouting only works as a way of replying to idiots in one of two cases:
Case 1: You are speaking through a microphone which is plugged into the Disaster Area PA system, or:
Case 2: You are Brian Blessed.
In both of these cases, the offending idiot will be blasted into component atoms by the sheer force of soundwaves. However, the effectiveness of these is limited by the non-presence of a Disaster Area PA system as it breaches non-proliferation treaties, and by the fact that there is only one Brian Blessed and he can only shout at so many people during the course of one day.

By and large, *facepalm* is generally a much more successful way of dealing with the stupid.

[onceupon.livejournal.com]

I think there is no one true path with this stuff, though. And adding the "you must be polite" burden to someone already hurting in a situation, for whatever reason, is kind of.... Well, it's kind of selfish.

So, while I try to advocate in polite terms when I'm in a situation that calls for it, sometimes that burden is just a bit much. When some jerk that doesn't know me is saying I am a liar because I'm not thin, why am I obligated to swallow that? I'm not.

I would say that both sides need to exercise a little understanding but I'm also super leery of telling people they need to make fighting against oppression more palatable to me. Like, ugh. That's not.... That's just not okay.

And, really, when standing up to institutions of any certain -ism, it really IS the loud voices that bring change. Asking politely doesn't work.

[onceupon.livejournal.com]

I think there might be cause to differentiate between dealing with individuals and dealing with organizations. Because while I've gotten the occasional good response to being Miss Merry Sunshine polite and sweet when there's a problem, I've gotten immediate and satisfactory response the few times I've lost it and let someone know how angry I am when it comes to dealing with corporations and doctors and establishment-type things. Squeaky wheel, and all that.

[erindubitably.livejournal.com]

SHOUTING MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER. JUST TRY IT. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

[cdave]

Actually I felt quite bad typing "shut up" in caps as the title of a post, even though it was in jest.

[a-pawson.livejournal.com]

The latter though is intimidation. The person you are speaking to has most likely given you what you want just to get rid of you.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

Off the top of my head, two possibilities:

1. You (general "you") are incorrect in your assessment of the manner as unfair.

And/or

2. The importance of what's being said outweighs the importance of your hurt feelings. (ETA: Which doesn't necessarily invalidate your hurt, which is the reason that I generally try not to be more of a jerk than strictly necessary. But, for example, if someone pokes me in the eye, I tend to feel justified in telling them to knock it off even if my doing so might make them sad.)

Of course, either or both of these may not apply in any given situation! But then again, they may.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

I'm going to say something that may be tragically missing the point and be facilely obvious, but I'd prefer to keeping thinking about this sort of issue than not try.

Suppose Alan wanders into a discussion, and [uses the word "nigger"] for less than an overwhelming reason to do so. Bob quite naturally says "That's racist!", implicitly saying Alan should avoid doing so. However, Alan says "What the hell? I'm not racist, I have black friends, I don't discriminate, etc, etc" and completely fails to hear the criticism.

If Bob had explained carefully, and said "Alan, I'm not saying anything against you personally, but you should know [using the word "nigger"] is SO offensive to just about everyone that even if you didn't deliberately mean to insult people, you should know in advance that you can't do that without hurting people. Please avoid it for my sake, and the sake of other people who are offended to hear it," then Alan might have listened.

However, it's an unreasonable burden to expect Bob to go to all that effort, when if Alan had made the slightest effort to pay attention to ANYTHING in the last thirty years, he'd know this perfectly well, and his ignorance can only be due to wilful stubborn ignorance, which when he ought to know will hurt everyone, rises to the level of malicious wilful ignorance.

(OTOH, if Alan came from some other culture entirely, completely cut off from Western culture and media, he might genuinely not know, and be hurt, confused and probably react by being angry and refusing to listen to the justice in Bob's comment, concentrating solely on the fact that Bob judged him so harshly.)

I understood the letter about tone not to be saying that shouting works better than being polite, but that "When asshole #5819 makes another racist comment it's unreasonable to expect me to go on trying to educate them, and explain that what they said was offensive, but carefully be sympathetic to them personally, when none of the other first #5818 assholes listened. The best I can hope for is to make them go away and persuade the audience that that behaviour is unnacceptable."

However, I think everyone round here is likely to agree that "[using the word 'nigger']" is offensive. However, they're much more likely to disagree that "[firefly isn't racist because X, Y, Z]" is offensive. And so Bob legitimately can't put up with explaining the basics to one more fucking Alan, and will restrict his response to "Stop being racist", whereas Alan, even if he admits he might be mistaken on this instance, still sees his comment as relevant, and say things like "Come on, dude, be polite, even if you disagree, there's no point throwing around accusations of racism".

[onceupon.livejournal.com]

You know, sometimes I'll take what I can get. If I have to intimidate my doctor into providing adequate care, so be it. (And then, of course, I'm going to find another damn doctor.)

[onceupon.livejournal.com]

I understood the letter about tone not to be saying that shouting works better than being polite, but that "When asshole #5819 makes another racist comment it's unreasonable to expect me to go on trying to educate them, and explain that what they said was offensive, but carefully be sympathetic to them personally, when none of the other first #5818 assholes listened. The best I can hope for is to make them go away and persuade the audience that that behaviour is unnacceptable."

I especially agree with this.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

Just a quick "Agreed" here. There have been several times in the recent past where the tone of discussions on the Internet and the manner in which other people have been treated have caused me to lose respect for a cause, or at least the self-proclaimed representatives of said cause, which normally I would heartily support. It might also cause me to avoid talking about the cause where I'd normally verbally support it, or stop identifying myself with that cause to avoid hassle. That's not a good way to help your side to Achieve Stuff.

(BTW, good on you for identifying yourself as a feminist. That's one of the causes I'm a little more jumpy about self-identifying these days, since it's rather easy for it to lead into a cross-examination, flat denial or insult from other people indentifying themselves in that way.)