I blame...

[andrewducker]

communicator was talking about the clash between left and right ideologies - where left-wing ideologies hold society to blame, and right-wing ideologies blame the individual, and left me wondering...

[Poll #1243921]

Comments

[astartesyriaca.livejournal.com]

Ack, does that make me right-wing?

I figure you designed the quiz and posted, but if you feel society drove you to it...

[andrewducker]

I'm unique and individual.

On the other hand, I'm clearly affected by the society I great up in.

On the third hand I can choose to work on my behaviours and change them if I don't like them.

On the fourth hand my liking of them will depend on many factors, including societal/cultural ones.

On the fifth hand, society/culture is clearly very diverse, and I've had many influences from all over the world.

On the sixth hand I don't actually believe in free will, which makes all of the above moot.

:->

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

Some things are systemic and some things are individual, but there was only really misogyny where I wanted to put "both" there.

You mind if I crosspost this?

[andrewducker]

Of course - nothing like a bit of publicity :->

Personally, I think that all of these things are both the result of societal influences and individual choices. You've said knife crime (for instance) is the fault of the individual - but if it was solely that then rates would be the same in Brixton and Hampshire, which they clearly aren't. But if it was purely societal pressure then _everyone_ in Brixton would be carrying one, and again, they clearly aren't.

Which is why I ticked only one option in my entire quiz :->

[laserboy.livejournal.com]

As you've said in one of your comments, there are certainly shades of grey and more so in some than others.

[andrewducker]

If there weren't it would be a pretty dull poll :->

[endless-psych.livejournal.com]

Now would be an excellent time to mention Zimbardo.

[likeneontubing.livejournal.com]

which study specifically? and why?

[endless-psych.livejournal.com]

Here via Snapesbabe.

Might add you to ye olde Friends list if thats ok?

[andrewducker]

Feel free :=>

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

My philosophy is based on being extremely liberal, but with full accountability for my actions and no excuse to harm others.

I'm way out of whack with society on most things, and it only spurs me on. The only one I'd say is absolutely down to society is the first one: it is 100% true that "the underclass have limited choices in life because of their social situation." It's proven. It's not social class, IQ, upbringing or genetics. It's money, and that's it.

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

Also here via snapesbabe, didn't realise this poll went straight to your LJ!

[xquiq.livejournal.com]

I'm happy to answer most of these in black and white terms on the basis that 'society' means 'modern British society'. For misogyny in particular, my answer would change were we discussing somewhere with different cultural norms.

I do wonder if as obesity becomes more the cultural norm, whether my response to that question would change as well. Although I don't believe many adults in the UK could claim ignorance of the effects of excess weight, I do think fat is becoming more acceptable. I'm also thinking of the recent study regarding imitative obesity.

[redshira.livejournal.com]

This is not a snarky comment but I don't know how to word it in a way which won't seem like snark, but: if you think fat is becoming more acceptable, you're obviously not fat. Fat is becoming less and less acceptable all the time. And as for this quote at the end of the BBC article: "If you are surrounded by people, whether that's friends or within the family home, who are overweight, you are sharing the same environment where there is likely to be an abundance of the wrong kind of foods." - well, it's just complete and utter bollocks. It's based on the assumption that fat people eat more food, and less "healthy" food, than thin people.

[wychwood]

I didn't answer most of these - obviously they're supposed to be grey areas, and I couldn't pick just one. I had issues particularly with the obesity / addiction questions, because I think that in both cases biology has a significant part to play. Some people can smoke cigarettes socially for years without being addicted; others smoke one or two and are hooked for years. Two people can eat very similar diets, and one will stay thin and the other will gain weight rapidly. So blaming it on either society *or* the individual is wrong, or at least only a small part of the answer.

(The only one I felt was relatively straightforward was the first; it seems utterly ridiculous to try and claim that people who grow up on crime-ridden sink estates with under-funded council schools can possibly have a straightforwardly equal competition with upper-middle-class children from public schools. Some people end up in bad situations because of their choices (though even then I'd argue for a big social influence), but "the underclass" includes lots of children, who have had very little ability to "choose" anything about their lives or situations. A baby born with a crack addiction cannot possibly be blamed for its "choices".)

[autopope.livejournal.com]

Big problem: you missed out "genetics/metabolic disorders" as an answer in the obesity and addiction and misogyny questions. Seriously -- why should "the individual/society" be the only two answers that are acceptable to people who otherwise hold left or right wing political views?

[nmg.livejournal.com]

you missed out "genetics/metabolic disorders" as an answer in the obesity and addiction and misogyny questions

Indeed. That was the point at which I stopped filling out the poll.

[red-phil.livejournal.com]

the correct answer to each of those questions is 'yes'

[chuma.livejournal.com]

Strangely the only one I found myself not just thinking "individual is at fault" was knife crime as the scaremongering by papers is fueling the fear and need to carry a protective weapon. As carrying is of itself a crime, then I think this is an example of society being to blame, though ultimately I still went for individual as frankly in the end if you are stupid enough to carry a knife, it's your own fault.

Also the underclass question I would like to add to the phrase "have limited choices in life because of their social situation" - but should make best use of the choices available to improve their situation for both themselves and their future decendents.

[andrewducker]

Totally agree with your last point.

Of course, from that level, stabbing people and nicking their stuff seems to look like the best choice they can make to improve their situation :->

[themongkey.livejournal.com]

Andy's poll questions usually involve

[ ] a false dichotomy
[ ] a spurious choice

:oP

[andrewducker]

Stolen!

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

I think addiction is mostly the fault of society simply because there aren't enough places in rehab, for instance. If addicts could choose to go to rehab and get themselves better (as rich addicts can) then it would become more (though not entirely) the fault of the addict.

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

I'm very surprised that most people think that addiction is the fault of the individual.

[rhythmaning.livejournal.com]

Just to be completely clear, "misogyny is the fault of the individual mysogynist, not the individual subjected to their misogyny".

(I got here via snapesbabe).

I saw you posting about Edinburgh recently, so I think I shall add you as a friend, too. Just so you know.

[andrewducker]

Cheers :->

Interested to see someone in Edinburgh that doesn't cross over with any of my other Edinburgh people at all!