andrewducker: (Default)
andrewducker ([personal profile] andrewducker) wrote2004-10-22 05:49 pm

Some thoughts on slash

Slash is a subject that causes incredibly strong emotional reactions in people. Having engaged in numerous discussions about this, I've been thinking about why this might be, partially because it keeps cropping up on my friends list and partially so that I can get something vaguely final down in words and stop it going round in my head.

I'll be taking my definition of slash as 'Fiction written by fans of a work in which characters who are not canonically gay are written with the assumption that they are'. I would like to point out in advance that this isn't intended to come out either in favour of, or against slash. I firmly believe that people have the right to freedom of speech, and if they choose to write slash then that is their prerogative. I'm merely interested in why slash affects people the way it does, and why it's previously caused the reaction in me that it has.

Now, some people claim that they merely find the idea of slash to be a waste of time, but people waste time in many thousands of ways, and most people have nowhere near the amount of emotional reaction to golf that they do to slash. This argument is therefore easily discounted.

Slash has a tendency mocked in a juvenile "Ewww, that's gross" manner which would tend to indicate that the mocker finds gay sex to be intrinsically gross. This could, indeed, be a major source of the objections people have. It should be noted, however, that this doesn't automatically indicate a homophobic intent - people who aren't interested in sex tend to find the whole area of sexuality pretty icky - only changing this feeling when the instinct to engage in it overcomes them. Without the urge to engage in particular sexual acts, it's entirely possible that those acts still cause the same reactions - a pointer in this direction can be gained from the fact that many gay men find the idea of heterosexual sex somewhat disturbing.

However, this cannot the only reason. After all, I have had no problem with homosexual characters and situations in other works of fiction where they were intrinsic parts (most recently The Adventures of Kavalier and Clay, where one of the major characters has his life grimly affected by the repressive attitudes towards homosexuality in 1930s America), but I have still had a negative reaction to slash. Nor can it be purely because most slash is erotica - there are many, many sites out there specialising in erotica and while there are people out there who do react negatively to gay porn, it's not something that I encounter nearly as often as people's reaction to slash.

People have an almost personal reaction to slash - as if some part of them had been violated. I believe the only way to explain this is to look at the way that people react to fiction and the characters within. People form emotional connections with the characters in their fiction, along with internalised ideas of who they are and how they behave. We feel (to a certain extent) as if they know them as people. After all, why would people watch most TV shows if they didn’t care about the characters and in some way empathise with them. When these characters then behave in ways that are perceived as uncharacteristic, people feel as if you’re portraying their friends in manner which is just plain wrong. The reaction here is probably somewhat similar to that evoked in horror movies where the characters are replaced by someone (or something) that acts almost, but not quite, the same as the original person – a feeling of unease and wrongness.

When we watched the last episode of Angel, [livejournal.com profile] green_amber was extremely upset at the act of one character, when they shot another one. She felt emotionally betrayed by the act – that character would _never_ act in that way. Never mind that the character doesn’t actually exist, or that the correct act for a fictional character is whatever the writer chooses for them to do, the way that the character had been written felt so wrong to her that she became quite irate at the way it was portrayed. I believe that it’s this reaction that is seen when most people encounter slash-fiction.

The question remains, however, why does homosexual sex seem so out of character for people that they have this strong reaction? It is, of course, not just possible but likely that there is some latent homophobia in the reaction – Kirk and Spock are heroes, manly men and gallant adventurers, thus obviously not homosexual. The fact that real-life adventurers and ‘manly men’ such as Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar had homosexual relationships is beside the point – surely Kirk and Spock wouldn’t do such a thing!

This reaction is seems obviously homophobic. If you don’t have a problem with homosexuality, why do you have a problem with your heroes engaging in it? But this response seems oddly simplistic – after all, the reader may not have a negative response to characters originally written as homosexuals (although there aren’t many of those about to have encountered). And if, after all, the character has never been shown to have any homosexual leanings, surely assuming their heterosexuality is perfectly reasonable?

Which is where the other part of the puzzle comes from – personal identification. People don’t just like Kirk – they want to be him, delivering two-fisted Kirk Justice, saving planets and kissing green-skinned women. They want to embrace the whole Kirk way of life. Suddenly discovering that this also means embracing Mr Spock comes as a bit of a shock. It’s as if the slash is telling them that _they_ are homosexual.

And again we come back to asking – if these people aren’t homophobic, why can’t they identify with people who are homosexual? If, after all, we can identify with people who are balding, a bit tubby around the middle and Speak!…Like!…This! then surely we can identify with someone who has sex with men? The answer seems to be that none of those other things seem as intrinsic to our personalities as our sexual identity is – people can base huge decisions about their lives (or, indeed, their whole lives) on their sexual identity, it’s something they care deeply about, and in the majority of cases seem to have little control over. Sexuality seems to be something you are, not something you do, and thus when made into an overt part of a character is too prominent to simply glide past.

This overtness also seems distinctive to slash – while I have encountered a few instances of heterosexual Trek fanfic, it seems much, much rarer. The occasional kiss or ellipsis seems to be all that fans require in the way of sexual content. It’s possible that most people don’t want to think of their heroes explicitly sexually _at all_, and that this also contributes to their reaction.

So the answer seems to be that slash takes characters we emapthise with and/or identify with and changes the depiction of them to act overtly in a way that many of the people encountering it find impossible to empathise/identify with. It’s likely that the strongest reactions (that aren’t merely coming from actual homophobes) will come from those people who are unused to thinking about their role-models in a sexual way at all, let alone in a sexual way that they themselves do not feel any affinity towards. Those people that have less of an emotional attachment to heterosexuality, or who care less about fictional characters will have a correspondingly lower negative reaction to it.

The question remains – why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

[identity profile] onceupon.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:03 am (UTC)(link)
What a fabulous and thinky essay.

The question remains – why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

My first answer, my flip answer, is both a bit simplistic and probably more true than people like to admit:

Just as many men are aroused at the idea of two women together, a lot of chicks dig the idea of hot monkey sex between two guys.

Of course, while it's socially acceptable to be turned on by two women, it's a bit more taboo to be aroused by the homosexual male sexual act. Slash is a place where it's okay to think about Wolverine and Cyclops making up naked after one of their spats.

There's also the idea that in our current state of cultural conditioning, men -- straight men -- simply aren't programmed to accept, much less get creative about, the idea of the erotic value of homosexual male sex. They (men conditioned by the predominant cultural attitiudes of our day) are taught that Playboy and threesomes with two women are what porn is supposed to be about. Slash is a bit outside of their sphere.

But it most certainly also has a lot to do with the percentage of the population who is most encouraged to write just for fun. Our cultural attitudes dictate that if a man is going to do something, it's going to be for a profit, there's going to be some benefit for it. As a result, you don't often see men writing casually, with no intent of "real" publication. Women are trained to be closet writers, given diaries as children, encouraged to write secrets and wishes and dreams. Women, who traditionally do better in writing and English classes, are often better trained to be casual writers as well. They are the ones -- as a group (I'm not bringing this down to the individual level, because anything goes on that level) -- that are best trained to do something like slash.

[identity profile] onceupon.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:20 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, I'm not saying there AREN'T men who write for fun.... But, at least in the US (because, as we all know, that's the only country that really matters ;) at least, women are more likely to write and then show those writings to other people.

I wonder.... Do you think the gender breakdown is for authors of regular, non-slash fanfic?

[identity profile] theferrett.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:06 am (UTC)(link)
Actually, my reaction to slash is not because I'm a homo-hater, but because I hate what I perceive to be bad characterization. Like your bad username tagged friend, I rail against the characterization I see in the actual canonical scripts - so why should I be different when it comes to slash, which tends to push the boundaries even further?

Sexual choice is fairly integral to someone's character, but as I've said usually what I find distressing is that the slash I've seen (and I'm told there's some that's Not Like That) reduces all same-sex friendships to "They want to get into each other's pants." The idea that all friendship, regardless of orientation, is based on sexual attraction is one that personally drives me crazy. Ask me how I felt when Mulder and Scully started makin' it on the X-Files. Gah.

I don't have much of an attachment to heterosexuality, but I do have an attachment to fidelity of character. I think what you're actually saying is, "Those who believe that heterosexuality or homosexuality is a reasonably-firm choice will have a negative reaction, whereas those who believe that everyone's bisexual and thus could fuck anyone at any time under the right circumstances will not have a problem."

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 11:07 am (UTC)(link)
I didn't see any reason for the bit in ROTK where Elrond basically tells Aragorn that he has to stop Sauron or Arwen will die. Because saving the world isn't a good enough reason - he has to be doing it for his girlfriend!

But that's not the same thing as an sexualisation of their relationship.

Aragorn and Arwen canonically have a relationship that is acknowledged on both sides as sexual in the future tense (at least, one trusts that marriage includes sex, even in Tolkien's world).

What made Elrond's speech in RotK unwarranted was the distortion of motive, as if the filmmakers couldn't believe anyone would believe Aragorn was saving Middle Earth because he's a noble and heroic hero. (Maybe it was the scruffy hair.)

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 01:45 pm (UTC)(link)
The sexualisation of the relationship would probably be Mulder/Scully.

I like Mulder/Scully hetfic.

Well, okay, I like it when it's faithful to the relationship as we see it on screen.

[identity profile] rainstorm.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 03:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, but considering how bad ROTK* was, for me that bit didn't stand out as being particularly awful. For some people, the idea that the world is ending is too big to comprehend. It's why people use individual pictures of starving children to encourage us to donate money rather than just telling us than one thousand children are dying a day (or whatever the statistic is).

*You know my views on that fucking waste of three hours of my life, so I'll leave it there.

;)

[identity profile] rainstorm.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 01:55 am (UTC)(link)
I don't like it. There are bits about it that I really did like (Gollum, for example.) but mostly.. Nah. As I've said before, I didn't like the story was messed with - to my mind, cutting a film for length is not a reason to totally change the plot. Cutting out Tom Bombadil - fine, cutting out Saruman - not fine (as far as I'm concerned). It was just another fantasy movie, but the Lord of the Rings is not just another fantasy book. In some senses it's -the- fantasy book.
One of the other things that really made me dislike the first film was that the first film was so fucking good. The second was bad, but the third was just so badly done - the ending that never ends. You kow, when I went to the cinema and watched it, when the ending came on, I thought "oh thanks god, it's finally ending. Hopefully they'll zip to the Grey Havens and it'll be done". But no. It ended and ended and ended for the rest of my life, or so it seemed. They could have cut huge amounts of vaguely homoerotic hobbits bouncing on beds and put in the scouring of the Shire.
And the Ents didn't look like trees. I mean, really. They're supposed to look like -trees-. TREES. Not stick insects! Not logs with spindly twigs attached!
I'm sure there's more I'm missing, but can't be bothered to type it all. Basically, there was the chance for it to be good, and it made me bitterly disappointed.

To me, this is a far worse travesty than The Phantom Menace.

[identity profile] octopoid-horror.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:29 am (UTC)(link)
reduces all same-sex friendships to "They want to get into each other's pants." The idea that all friendship, regardless of orientation, is based on sexual attraction is one that personally drives me crazy

It could easily be said that much of film and television these days has that idea (although for heterosexual couples only, for the most part)

[identity profile] theferrett.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Absolutely true. It bugs me on that, too. Like I said, I got furious about Mulder/Scully because it was such fucking lazy writing. "We got nothing else - aw, fuck it, they sleep together."

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:37 am (UTC)(link)
so why should I be different when it comes to slash, which tends to push the boundaries even further?

Because you think of homosexuality as something that "pushes boundaries", rather than as a normal human activity?

[identity profile] wolflady26.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:51 am (UTC)(link)
I think it's more a matter that the character has, in canon, never expressed any tendency to homosexuality, but then, in slash, suddenly starts sucking cock like it's the new Pepsi Flavor of the Month, that pushes the boundaries of believability. A hidden obsession for any "normal human activity" in fanfic could be just as jarring. For example, if a fanfic centered on Spike's lifelong passion for horseback riding and career as a jockey, readers who are passionate about the character would probably call bullshit and feel alienated from the fan writer's characterization. And another, actual example might be the huge hubbub that happened in Buffy fansites when Dawn was suddenly introduced as a character, because she had no in-canon backhistory. Lots of people were furious, until the reason for her sudden appearance became clear.

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:58 am (UTC)(link)
People got furious about Willow and Tara.

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 11:11 am (UTC)(link)
I doubt if the hordes would have complained so intensely about Willow's new relationship if instead of Tara, it had been "Tom" who had been hanging out with Willow, clearly adoring her, for so many episodes.

I doubt it because, while people complained about Riley and then Spike, there was never a horde of people going "But Buffy only fucks vampires with souls" - as if her first preference naturally set her character in stone.

[identity profile] theferrett.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually, there were a lot of people saying, "Buffy fucks cool, confident guys, and Riley's a whiny wuss. Why in God's name would she be attracted to him?"

Which isn't quite sexual preference, so I realize it won't count for you as something where people thought it wasn't in character, but what the hey.
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[identity profile] hfnuala.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 02:01 am (UTC)(link)
I don't. She was clearly in love with Oz and denying that just annoys me. Human sexuality is a leelte more complicated than 'gay now', amusing and all as I find that line.

And don't get me started on the horror that was Kennedy.
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[identity profile] hfnuala.livejournal.com 2004-10-24 02:51 am (UTC)(link)
Well, to be honest, this really isn't just about Willow and Oz for me. It's a bisexual's confusion at the way non-bis think of their emotional journey.

If you've loved people of one gender in the past how can you state in all certainty that it will never happen again?

So I get see it as Willow loved Oz (And Xander) and then she met Tara and loved her and chose that love over Oz when he came back. All of this is wonderful stuff and some of my fav episodes. But I don't see why it means she'll never love a man again.

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-24 12:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I always figured that the reason Willow identified herself as gay, not bi, was probably because she couldn't handle being bisexual. (That and not wanting to hurt Tara's feelings, because Tara definitely comes across as a lesbian.)

[identity profile] funwithrage.livejournal.com 2004-10-24 11:35 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I'm with that--not only was she in love with Oz, she was attracted enough to Xander to cheat on someone she *did* love a lot. Points to, at most, bi with more emotional attachment/attraction to women.

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:57 am (UTC)(link)
I think it's more a matter that the character has, in canon, never expressed any tendency to homosexuality, but then, in slash, suddenly starts sucking cock like it's the new Pepsi Flavor of the Month, that pushes the boundaries of believability.

Yeah, I can see that for pairings with no canon support, but people who don't like slash often object even to such obvious pairings as Kirk/Spock, Avon/Blake, Sirius/Remus, Trapper/Hawkeye (TV series, anyway), Wooster/Jeeves, Duncan/Methos, and so on.

It's exactly like the way hordes of Buffy fans went nutso when Willow admitted that she was in love with Tara. That romance was absolutely the most foreshadowed of all the relationships in the entire series - yet there were so many Buffy fans who reacted with "But Willow can't be gay!" because, evidently, to them, having someone come out as gay "pushed boundaries": it wasn't something normal people naturally do.

[identity profile] octopoid-horror.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:05 pm (UTC)(link)
That's because - regardless of subcultures/communities which are more accepting - society at large, and massive chunks of the media still view sexuality that isn't all proper and correct heterosexuality as something wrong.

It seems a bit unlikely to me, sometimes, that ALL sports stars would be straight. Okay, maybe there are a few who are gay that I have missed the media furore about, but still... I think a point is made somewhere in that.

I am reminded of a girl at work who, on finding out that her neighbour was a lesbian, was suddenly terrified and paranoid that this sinister creature might fancy her just because they were both girls. I felt slightly sick at knowing someone that prejudiced.

[identity profile] paddie-gal.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Well I work with a girl who's gay, and in a long-term relationship, and the other people (namely her boss) in her department have only just realised she's gay, because she told one person and it spread - today, this supervisor gave a department-wide 5 minute lecture on how God created Adam and Eve, rather than Adam and Steve, and I was gobsmacked that someone was still using that argument!! But then this is the person who hates speaking to a particular callcentre we use, because "it's full of chinks." This is a bright, intelligent 20-something woman. That's bloody scary. She works with an Asian guy, yet openly calls Asian people "Pakis" in front of him, but freaks out if he calls someone a cunt. Jeesus.

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 01:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I am reminded of a girl at work who, on finding out that her neighbour was a lesbian, was suddenly terrified and paranoid that this sinister creature might fancy her just because they were both girls.

I came out to a colleague at work once - I'd known him nearly two years and was a bit surprised that he hadn't already realised - but he swore he hadn't, and added that he was fine with that, though he might be a bit disconcerted if I'd been a man, because, you know, he wouldn't want a man fancying him.

"Come off it," I told him. "You're really not that irresistible."

Bless him, he laughed.

[identity profile] theferrett.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:51 pm (UTC)(link)
What you see as obvious, I see as friendship - and it bugs me that any close friendship between two same-sex people is "obvious," as opposed to a simple pal. My wife is bisexual, but has close female pals she doesn't want to sleep with. Thus, the objection that it's "obvious" when it may not be obvious.

Totally agreed on the shamefulness of Buffy fans. I wasn't watching live, but when I saw the reruns I said, "How in God's name did they NOT see that coming?"
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[identity profile] cathexys.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 02:18 pm (UTC)(link)
But do you similarly object to het fanfiction? Because, let's face it, once you move beyond the gen writing that actually mimics the plots of respective shows with particular cases etc., you're pretty much in romance territory. In other words, are you having as many issues with Harry/Luna as you do with Harry/Ron?

Personally, I'd actually argue that there is *more* room for gay romance to be written by fanficcers, simply because there is often little reason to hide a straight relationship from others including us, the viewers (i.e., it is much harder on some level to explain why Xander would hide his relationship with Buffy than why he'd hide his with Spike).

I think your point that not all emotional intimacy need automatically be read as romantic intimacy is very well taken. But the fact that there *is* emotional intimacy, often of an intensity usually not common and/or permitted between men in our society, at least permits (though certainly doesn't demand!) that the relationship be read as a love affair (I'm primarily thinking of cop buddy shows, for example...). And it is these shows that obviously give the most room for simply arguing that the characters may very well be bi even if it never was addressed in canon, b/c they take place within a culture of don't ask; don't tell...be it military or police force.

[identity profile] coalescent.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 06:30 pm (UTC)(link)
The only thing that made me uncomfortable about Willow and Tara's relationship was the way the writers treated them with kid gloves. There's a(n otherwise positive) review of 'New Moon Rising' that makes my point for me: we don't know when Willow and Tara started going out. For every other couple on the show, we know the exact moment the relationship started, but with Willow and Tara it's not possible to pin down the moment at which subtext became text. It made me uncomfortable, because it meant they were being treated differently to the other relationships.

Part of me thinks that might be a contributing factor towards the general fannish outrage. I'm sure there's denial, homophobia, everything in there as well ... but they didn't tell the story fairly, and that stings too.

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 02:25 am (UTC)(link)
It made me uncomfortable, because it meant they were being treated differently to the other relationships. Part of me thinks that might be a contributing factor towards the general fannish outrage.

Nope: they were treated differently because the producers anticipated general fannish outrage.

And got it, fair to say.

Joss went further than I expected him to go in dealing with Willow/Tara: but it's a homophobic universe out there, and they were never going to be treated equally with the straight couples.

[identity profile] drworm.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 06:53 pm (UTC)(link)
but people who don't like slash often object even to such obvious pairings as Kirk/Spock, Avon/Blake, Sirius/Remus, Trapper/Hawkeye (TV series, anyway), Wooster/Jeeves, Duncan/Methos, and so on.

This may or may not be a case of squirting on the lighter fluid with a little too much enthusiasm, but there are a fair number of people who like slash who would object to any or all of those pairings being deemed 'obvious.'

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 02:22 am (UTC)(link)
This may or may not be a case of squirting on the lighter fluid with a little too much enthusiasm, but there are a fair number of people who like slash who would object to any or all of those pairings being deemed 'obvious.'

Oh, including me: I'm an Avon/Vila Spock/McCoy fan myself. But those are all pairings that people have picked up on at first sight, without even necessarily any knowledge that slash existed. I might add Holmes/Watson and Starsky/Hutch, too.

[identity profile] theferrett.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually, I was referring to the boundaries of canon and characterization, as opposed to simple homosexual behavior. I've seen slash pairings with Kirk/Harry Potter, which is more than you're going to get from any movie because the shows would realize that the universes of Harry Potter and Star Trek would cause a LOT of continuity problems. Slash fiction doesn't have a creative editor to go, "No, that's really not how these characters should act" - and that's in ALL aspects, not just sex.

I realize you'd like to think that I believe homosexuality is deviant, but I don't.

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 11:48 am (UTC)(link)
I realize you'd like to think that I believe homosexuality is deviant, but I don't.

Actually, I'd prefer to believe that you don't think homosexuality is deviant. But interaction with you so far on this topic has mostly consisted of you yelling at me, which is not the way to convince me.

[identity profile] dodyskin.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:05 pm (UTC)(link)
...usually what I find distressing is that the slash I've seen (and I'm told there's some that's Not Like That) reduces all same-sex friendships to "They want to get into each other's pants."The idea that all friendship, regardless of orientation, is based on sexual attraction is one that personally drives me crazy.

I hear that point made a lot, but I still don't quite understand it. For me, fanfiction is about exploring possibilities. Exploring the relationship between, say, Wesley and Angel as a sexual one does not exclude the possibility of it being a platonic one. Another day, another fanfic. It's not that *all* friendships are based on sexual attraction. It's that this one could be, and in this fic, what might happen if it were? The very fact of one slash fic existing does not preclude a gen, or het, one from existing. As far as I can see, it is the classification of fics as slash or het or gen or whatever that attaches these um... classifications? gah. Have lost my thread.

Saying that slash reduces (and why reduce?) all same-sex relationships to sexualised relationships seems weird. It's just a way of linking together a disparate lot of fics with a (sometimes the only) common thread. It's not a statement about all relationships.

Or have I missed the point?

[identity profile] theferrett.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Basically, I'm against fiction of any sort that provides poor characterization. That's why I stopped reading the published Star Wars novels - when Han the Scoundrel became a whining guy, so heartbroken over Leia that he couldn't function when she left him and eventually had to beg her to take him back so he could be whole again, I left. There are any number of characters I could believe that about, but Han?

You may be correct that fan-fiction is a way for people to explore various facets of any universe, but many of those facets are so far away from the original that I cannot enjoy them because they bear no relationship to the original. Why ape something if you're just going to make it so your own creation that it's not at all like the original? Why not just write a novel or story that actually has the characters you want to see, instead of turning X into Y so you can have the easy cred of a background?

Yeah, it's a possibility. I could set "Gone with the Wind" as a William Gibson cyberpunk adventure... But at that point, to me, it ceases to be like the original at all and a new creation, without the benefit and excitement of actually being new.

You are correct that slash is simply a catch-all term for a narrow band of fan fiction, but usually I dislike the pairings simply because of the reasons I stated. Your mileage may vary, and often does, but I want the evolution of the characters in any given media source to be organic and logical, not just "Han's an ice-cream salesman because I LOVES ME SOME ICE CREAM!"

[identity profile] dodyskin.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 01:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Ack, I don't even have a car.

I'm happy to hear your opinion. I'm relatively new to fanfic, and don't have my thoughts enclosed in any particular camp, except for in the sense of really just being in the Angel: the Series fandom and not much else. I seem to spend a lot more time talking about fanfiction than writing it at the moment. Fandom is just so interesting!

I suppose I'm coming at it from a different angle. I mean, I love the characters, to a deeply tragic and possibly unhealthy degree, but I'm completely *fascinated* by the universe. The structure, the metaphors and the language, that's what really gets my love. To me it really isn't just background.

Aanyway. I'm rambling and senseless again, and Have I Got News For You is on. And every time someone says, 'you shouldn't' or 'you can't', I go and do it. Because I'm like that.

::puts down the thread and backs away::

[identity profile] katiescarlet.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 09:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Why ape something if you're just going to make it so your own creation that it's not at all like the original? Why not just write a novel or story that actually has the characters you want to see, instead of turning X into Y so you can have the easy cred of a background?

OMG, yes! I've had that exact same thought about lots of badfic.

[identity profile] laeb.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 09:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Why ape something if you're just going to make it so your own creation that it's not at all like the original? Why not just write a novel or story that actually has the characters you want to see, instead of turning X into Y so you can have the easy cred of a background?

That bit I have already discussed about with many other writers (slashers to be exact) and what resulted from those chats was that A) we love the uuniverse that was created and like the borders, boundaries that were set by the author in the first place, B) we don'T want to write our own universe, create our own characters (as for that there are so many motives I won'T start to enumerate all of them) and C) we love the (our) fandom(s). It's like being in big, friendly families or sort.

Or at least that's what we came to realise. But no one's like us, so ...

And bad characterisation (or feminised and/or overly emotional) of males in slash (the male/male bit, at least) makes me cringe. I know there are readers who adore to see their fav pairng going all mushy and flowery and sugary but it makes me sick. Men are men, gay or not. Manly, thinking with their dick, drinking beer *g* (how cliché can this become?) and won't spend 3 horus overanalysing their feelings for another person and calling them every hour to remind them that they love them indeed. Most of them, at least. It's not as though 95% of the gay population was camp and frivolly. Having many gay friends, I got this info first hand and thus despise seeing all those poor blokes being written as though they had a pussy and not a dick between their legs. All these feelings and this need to talk about things ... *shudders*

[/rambling]

[identity profile] tanacawyr.livejournal.com 2004-11-07 07:51 pm (UTC)(link)
You're losing me on the "out of character" thing from the beginning, though. Mostly because I've had the experience of casually coming out to (mostly) men who seem convinced because of what I look like that I'm just NOT lesbian, because "everyone knows" what real lesbians are like and look like. And they don't look like me. They are convinced somehow that it's "out of character" for a woman who looks like I do to be lesbian. Gay men I don't doubt experience the same thing.

"I prefer women."

"You're a lesbian?"

"Yep."

*stare* "No, you're not."

And every time someone says it's "out of character" for a certain person to be gay or lesbian, what I'm hearing is, "I know what homosexuals are like. They all walk around with a big red H on their forehead so I can see them a mile off. This character doesn't have that big red H and doesn't act like how I consider a real gay man or lesbian to act, therefore they cannot be gay or lesbian." Gay men all act like the guys on "Queer Eye" and lesbians are all heavyset, with buzz cuts and tool belts. (Some are, some aren't.)

This whole "out of character" defense smacks too much of all those (very often) heterosexual males who are utterly convinced that it's "out of character" for a woman who looks like me, with my hobbies and my educational background, to be lesbian. If someone made a character exactly like me in a TV show, you would quite probably consider it equally out of character for that person to be queer, and state it as patently, with as much false confidence as you are doing now. I've seen it. Believe me, I've seen it. Many times.

I've had 100%, total, up-close and personal experience with just how anyone can be queer. It's not out of character to me, not by any means.

Then again, I write in a fandom set in a historical universe where sodomy was illegal until you were two weeks out of port, upon which point it was compulsory. :-)

[identity profile] octopoid-horror.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:13 am (UTC)(link)
Women are reputed to prefer text erotica/pornography/term of choice to images, which might have something to do with this. Not all slash is erotica/porn etc, but even if a significant chunk is, this'd affect it, I'd imagine.


[identity profile] dapperscavenger.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:15 am (UTC)(link)
Well, duh.

Two hot guys getting it on is HOT. What about this don't you get?

[identity profile] green-amber.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 01:50 pm (UTC)(link)
WEll it either gets you hot or it doesn't. You can't generalise for all women. It doesn't for me. And this is NOTHING to do with homophobia - the majority of my male friends are gay.

[identity profile] onceupon.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 01:54 pm (UTC)(link)
That's true of everything. There are always going to be people who groove on something and people who don't groove on that same thing.

The comments I've made, they apply to the women who enjoy slash. Did I imply that I meant ALL women?

[identity profile] green-amber.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 02:46 pm (UTC)(link)
You said "Totally!" to a comment which said (I condense) "Two men getting it on is HOT." That sounded pretty generalist to me..

[identity profile] dapperscavenger.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 02:49 pm (UTC)(link)
You're inferring.

Calm down dear. Its only a commercial!

[identity profile] green-amber.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 03:01 pm (UTC)(link)
?

Would you like it if I told you what got YOU hot? When it didn't?

[identity profile] dapperscavenger.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 03:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Ya know, if I had done that, your point would be valid.

[identity profile] onceupon.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 07:35 am (UTC)(link)
I was agreeing that I think it is totally hot. I really didn't feel like a one word response indicated that I was speaking for all of women everywhere.

[identity profile] pisica.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:19 am (UTC)(link)
I HATE GOLF SOOOOOO MUCH! THE NEXT PERSON I SEE WITH A NINE-IRON IS GOING TO HAVE IT WRAPPED AROUND THEIR NECK!

;)

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:35 am (UTC)(link)
I hate brussels sprouts. The next person I see eating them, especially if they look as if they're enjoying them, is going to get ranted at, at length, about how horrible they are.

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:41 am (UTC)(link)
You might think you're joking

Who's joking? It's happened on my flist three times in the past year that someone who doesn't like slash has found it necessary to rant about how much they don't like it.

I would post a ranting screed about brussels sprouts, but it's not worth it.

[identity profile] dreema.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 03:44 am (UTC)(link)
how about celery? celery is the evil spawn of satan

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 04:57 am (UTC)(link)
Celery is the Dark Side of vegetables. Celery leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to the Dark Side.


[identity profile] octopoid-horror.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:26 am (UTC)(link)
To raise a second point, do you like fan fiction?

If you don't like fan fiction at all, then slash fiction will hardly appeal. And many of the people who object to slash -also- have an objection to fan fictiom (me, for example), and so are hardly judging it on the content, whether heterosexual, homosexual or variants thereof.

[identity profile] octopoid-horror.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:32 am (UTC)(link)
Well yes.

I would firmly place writers such as August Derleth in the "fan fiction" camp. Lovecraft does appear to inspire it to a worrying degree.

A -lot- of fan fiction is badly written, it seems. Yes, there is some that is very well written, but it's much like internet porn. There's some that is genuinely great, inventive, and does good things. But there's a vast amount that's just unpleasant, full of amateurs and people who ought to know better doing things that no one wants to know about.

[identity profile] rahaeli.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 11:19 am (UTC)(link)
...until you find a site where there are gatekeepers (editors, recommenders, archivists, etc) who serve the same function, or a fandom where the vast majority of the writers are educated and literate, such as my current fandom, which I won't mention for fear of totally and completely embarrassing myself :)

[identity profile] norah.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 11:59 am (UTC)(link)
Er, whisper in my ear, and tell me what this magic fandom is?

Sturgeon's Law is ABSOLUTELY applicable, possibly twice over, to fanfiction. That is one of the reasons I value the fan community so highly - its archivists and reccers make the morass of utter crap manageable for a discriminating reader.

I am an odd case - I don't care as much about canon (I read in over a dozen fandoms where I have not seen the show or movie on which the fiction is based) as I do about internal believability within a story. Since fandom itself is, in a way, my primary fandom, I don't have that sense of disconnect you're talking about that makes the transition from straight-seeming to queer or hero to sexually-identified individual so difficult. Although, as [livejournal.com profile] mhari says below, for those fandoms where I do have a strong early identification with the characters, I still can't read the slash - LOTR, Patrick O'Brian - it just doesn't make sense to me. So I think you might be on to something here.

[identity profile] rahaeli.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, uh, do you have moral qualms about RPS? :)

I had a project in the works for a while that would build sort of "trust metric" type things for fandom -- ie, if you like so-and-so's writing, you'll probably like the writers they like, and might possibly like the writers other people who like that writer like, etc. As so many of my plans do, it fell apart due to complete and utter lack of time.

[identity profile] norah.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I think good reccers serve as that sort of trust metric, a lot of the time. I know I never read anything that hasn't been recced to me, anymore - and then, as I am primarily a reccer myself, I turn it around for my flist and share what I found I enjoyed.

And I have very few moral qualms about anything; I both read and write RPS, so no problem there.

[identity profile] rahaeli.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Email ahoy, then.

[identity profile] mecurtin.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Er, whisper in my ear, and tell me what this magic fandom is?

Discworld fanfic is currently better than Sturgeon's Law. Silmarillion fanfic is, too, as is Sports Night.

As a general rule, the larger and demographically younger the fandom, the worse the overall quality of the fanfic. Uncommon fandoms that appeal to older people are more likely to do better than SL.

I'm told, for instance, that LOTR fanfic is currently running worse than Sturgeon's Law. However, the less popular pairings, especially the less popular slash pairings (since slash writers have a higher median age than het writers) often do better than Sturgeon's Law: Legolas/Gimli, for instance, currently has the rep for being better than Sturgeon.

To say that something conforms to Sturgeon's Law is to say it is being done by human beings: you are not adding any information.

I misspoke

[identity profile] mecurtin.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 08:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Discworld fanfic is more-or-less in line with Sturgeon's law; I was thinking of Good Omens fanfic, which is considerably better (smaller fan base, also slashier).

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 10:34 am (UTC)(link)
If you don't like fan fiction at all, then slash fiction will hardly appeal.

Agreed. It's kind of annoying, though, that so many people start out saying "I hate slash!" when it turns out after discussion that they really mean "I hate fanfic!"

[identity profile] lilitufire.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 11:12 am (UTC)(link)
I haven't read that much, but one of the few bits I've read is some Dark is Rising slash. That disturbed me because the characters will always be from 9 - 13 in my eyes and it seemed vaguely paedophilic for them to be getting it on. I don't think it would have matter if it had been Barney and Bran or Jane and Will, to be honest. I guess that's a reaction not unlike the Angel scenario.

[identity profile] mhari.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 11:28 am (UTC)(link)
This was interesting, thanks.

I write fanfic of all sorts, largely slash these days but also het and gen (non-romantic). And I realized the other day that I tend to look for interest in slash as a marker of whether I think I will get along with someone. Which is really rather weird, since I like lots of things besides teh hott imaginary mansex. But I figure that a self-proclaimed slash fan is unlikely to be a) a homophobe or b) a person who thinks fanfic is a concoction of Satan, two types with which I do not get along at all, so it's shorthand in a way.

And then, and I'm getting to the relevant bit here, I started thinking about the converse: that I am likely to have a knee-jerk initial aversion to someone who comes out and says they don't like slash -- even though I know perfectly well that there are people who don't like it just because it's not the kind of thing they like to read, not because they've got something against it.

And I know this how? Firstly 'cos I know people like that, and secondly because there are things it hurts me to think of slashing, even when I can see exactly why other people do it. Like LotR -- I read that in junior high, and it was a huge influence on me, and hobbitslash is just -- augh, my childhood! Even though I can totally see it.

All of which is a roundabout way of saying that I think you've come closer to it than anyone I have yet seen with this: "the strongest reactions ... will come from those people who are unused to thinking about their role-models in a sexual way at all".

[identity profile] heron61.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:04 pm (UTC)(link)
This overtness also seems distinctive to slash – while I have encountered a few instances of heterosexual Trek fanfic, it seems much, much rarer.

Actually, there is a hell of a lot of het fanfic, and like slash it mostly focuses on non-cannonical character pairings. I don't think that there is much of it in ST fandom, but there certainly is in the La Femme Nikita, X-Men, and Smallville fandoms (and I'm told that there is much het fic in Harry Potter fandom.

Given that this sort of fanfiction has approximately the same writing quality as slash (ie ranging from excellent (rare) to eyebleedingly bad (far too common) I'm guessing that a lot of the negative reaction to slash is ingrained homophobia, especially since slash both causes more and louder reactions than het fic. As [livejournal.com profile] yonmei mentions, the outcry in Buffy fandom (at least in the US) over Willow and Tara being in love was fairly impressive.

[identity profile] dejla.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, non-canonical pairings tended to be non-canonical because many of the episodic shows didn't show the characters as having sexual relationships with each other. And that was usually because they wanted to be able to repeat episodes without having to worry about continuity. Or because they were afraid the viewers might not watch the show if their preferred character got a permanent partner -- as opposed to something temporary which could then end badly and unload a lot more angst on the preferred character.

[identity profile] heron61.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 02:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I completely agree, and the ability to play with subtexts and missed opportunities is one of the most interesting features of fanfiction.

[identity profile] mecurtin.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Overall in the great wide hairy world of internet fanfic, there's more het than slash. I suspect that the average quality of all internet fanfic is worse than predicted by Sturgeon's Law, because the median age of Internet fanfic writers is about 17. I also suspect that the average quality of slash is somewhat higher than the average quality of het, because the average age of slash writers is higher than the average age of het writers, and people *do* learn. A little.

Why is the average age of slash writers higher than that of het writers?

(a) because in our culture slash is non-obvious, while het is obvious. It usually takes a while for the slash penny to drop.

(b) because everyone starts off writing Mary Sues: it's a normal developmental stage, especially when you're 14.

(c) because a taste for slash is not provided for in the culture at large, slash fans tend to stay around fandom longer. Het romance fans can find oceans of original fic in every supermarket; slash fans have very few suppliers outside of fanfic.

[identity profile] deirdre-riordan.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 08:21 pm (UTC)(link)
1. I 100% agree with you. Though I must be an anomaly, because I *never* wrote het. I wrote a few Sues when I was a kid, sure, but there wasn't any kind of romantic stuff. I think I wrote my first slash when I was about 13. Thankfully, there wasn't much internet culture back then, so it's never seen the light of day.

2. You're the FSP lady!!! *bows down* Seriously. Leslie Fish's stories changed my life and I have you to thank. So thank you!

[identity profile] deirdre-riordan.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 09:05 pm (UTC)(link)
You said of het fic:
I don't think that there is much of it in ST fandom.
I can't speak to TNG, DS9, or Voyager, because those aren't fandoms I'm in.
But in TOS fandom, once you factor out all the K/S (which is the predominant pairing), I think the numbers on het and slash fic are really about equal. I think it just kind of looks like there's a slash majority because there's SO much K/S.

I'm told that there is much het fic in Harry Potter fandom.
Oh, like you wouldn't believe. But there is a LOT of slash as well-- it just kind of depends on where you look. It's such a huge fandom that it's hard to even conceptualise the numbers. But I'd almost say that het is probably the majority, in quantity. In quality, there is much more *good* slash fic. Just go look at ff.net-- you'll wade through about 85 gallons of badly spelled het written by 12-year-olds, but the first slash fic you come to will most likely be worth reading, at least in terms of literary merit. I'm not saying this because I don't like het, or think het writers are losers. I'm saying it because the empirical evidence shows me it's true. And as [livejournal.com profile] mecurtin points out somewhere on here, it's largely because the average age of slashers is a lot higher.

[identity profile] dreamplum.livejournal.com 2004-11-04 04:34 pm (UTC)(link)
But in TOS fandom, once you factor out all the K/S (which is the predominant pairing), I think the numbers on het and slash fic are really about equal. I think it just kind of looks like there's a slash majority because there's SO much K/S

This is very true. There's a kind of myth out there that there isn't any Trek het being written, and there's LOADS of it. It just frequently doesn't have to do with Kirk or Spock, since it's being written by some of the same people that write a lot of K/S. McCoy's been gettin a lot of girly acrion this year, lol.

Dear Mr. Dude that Wrote the Original Post: I love your comment about the balding/tubby/Speaks!Like!This! thing. Hahahaha!!!

I'm in charge of a K/S website with dozens of stories and hundreds of drawings from lots and lots of fans, and EVERYTHING is PG. I originally made the site for my little sister, so that if I wanted to show her slashy things someday, I wouldn't have to try to remember where all of the kidsafe stuff was. It turned into a really popular site in K/S, mainly because it turned out there were people out there, grownups, who wanted to be able to enjoy K/S romance without the graphic sex. Weird, huh?

http://thyla.com

Thanks for being openminded, Mr Writer :-) It makes the world a better place.

[identity profile] dejla.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Why are so many of the slash writers women? Well, that used to be because the majority of fanfic writers were women. And that was because the majority of media fen, as opposed to literary science-fiction fandom, were women.

Other than that, I'd guess because a lot of women writers are interested in emotion and/or character. And because they're inserting whatever they feel is lacking in either the characters in the show or in the universe of the show.

Some slash I read and like. A lot of it I see as OOC. Personally, I'd rather have a plot than a tab A fits in slot whatever story. I don't read a book or watch a move/tv show/play because I identify with anyone in it -- I read it because the writer or the actor is able to create a virtual world for me for however long it takes to complete the piece.

But that's what I want out of it. YMMV.

It's the sex

[identity profile] orange852.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 12:49 pm (UTC)(link)
And again we come back to asking – if these people aren’t homophobic, why can’t they identify with people who are homosexual? If, after all, we can identify with people who are balding, a bit tubby around the middle and Speak!…Like!…This! then surely we can identify with someone who has sex with men?

Assuming for the sake of argument that the slash-phobe really isn't a homophobe, perhaps s/he is making the wrong argument with respect to characterization.

Where many slashphobes say "it's bad characterization of Kirk!" is it possible they really mean "it's bad characterization of Trek!" ?

Star Trek is, after all, science fiction with an occasional, semi-racy aside in which the captain gets some with a hot alien chick. The Real Plot [tm] has to do with (fill in sci fi Trek-specific techno-babble here.) If there's a semi-racy sub-plot wherein Kirk gets the hot babe, it isn't the central point of the story, it's a prop to his characterization as a studmuffin through all but meaningless sex.

I don't read Kirk/Spock, but I do read a rather wide variety of slash, and almost all of it takes the creation and cementing of a romantic, homosexual relationship between two (or more!) canon characters as the central plot point. It's moseying over to the romance genre, where the sci-fi, Trek-specific techno-babble becomes the barely relevant aside.

Did the slashphobe click on the link to read a romance, no matter how hot or erotic it might be? The creation of a Serious Relationship between a man known for an endless string of casual conquests and another canon character? Probably not. There's not necessarily a need to delve into whether there's homophobia going on, though it strikes me as rather strange that the most bilious condemnations of poor characterization seem to coincide with characterizations that are...gay.

Re: It's the sex

[identity profile] green-amber.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 03:00 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't really give a damn about Kirk/Spock slash. I never had terribly much emotional investment in these characters to start with. And yes they are poor caricatures at best (all American womaniser hero vs cold logical machine) so making them gay or not can hardly be said to be destroying existing characterisation.

But when we get to Buffy which has truely excellent characterisation and , to add to that, a complex web of slowly elaborated relationships between those characters, I DO care. Spike, eg, simply does not work to me as gay. It is as much a part of Spike's character to be straight, to be in love with Buffy and Dru and NOT (say) Giles or Xander, with all implications for the romance and frustration and goals that carries with it, as it is my own.

I would object to a film made about my life in which I was portrayed as gay not because I am a homophobe but because it would be a mis representation of my life. It might be artistically interesting, it might highlight certain aspects of my life or my friendships, but, well, it wouldn't be accurate.

Although (as Andy points out) fictional characters are of course rather more up for grabs, I feel much the same about slash pairings in the Buffyverse.

(This I should say is quite outwith the aspect of "good" or "bad" writing - I have read some very good Buffy slash, mostly by [livejournal.com profile] rozk - but it still does on the whole not ring emotionally true for me.)

Finally , as is commented at various places above, slash does at root seem to be all about sex. And though much of fiction is about sex, by no means all of it is. In Buffy (to take an eg I know again) we can see themes such as redemption, friendship, family and betrayal. Slash tends to be about - well - can we get these two characters to have sex. It's a rather reductionist genre. I tend to find what I have read after a while (not much admittedly) rather a dull blur of lubricants and rock hard penises. But then I am not much for textual porn in general. (Perhaps I 'm not a girl at all..)

There is after all more to life and to fiction than sex. Even gay sex :-)

Re: It's the sex

[identity profile] odheirre.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 07:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I have nothing to add to this conversation, except that I totally agree with you about the Angel episode mentioned above.

Well, that, and I agree with you - a lot of slash seems forced, seems like the whole point of the story is to get characters to have sex. Good sex stories, like good sex, are always about the participants, not the act itself.

New Places, New Friends

[identity profile] velyrhorde.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 05:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Hey -- those of you who haven't found it should stop by [livejournal.com profile] men_who_slash for some additional great discussions on slash and fanfic!

Also - I'd appreciate replies and comments in my own journal poll on EXACTLY this topic! Seems that great minds really do think alike!

[identity profile] kortirion.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 06:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Perhps there might be a continuing confusion between homoerotic and homosexual fictions. The later is a life-style, the former is a depiction of desire between men, usually expressed by women. While slash writing dates from the 70's one of the concepts behind it, the femininization of the media hero, goes back a lot further. Jane Austen's Mr Darcy for a start and continuing from there through the Mills & Boone/'bodice-ripper' novels[all of which are written by women], because one aspect of slash one might be overlooking is that it's more about romantic and homosocial behaviour than homosexual. [ok, you get non-con sex, BDSM etc, but even there there's a lot of hurt/comfort]
Homoerotic = teh hot guys: a very high proportion of women writers: they explicitly describe the sensibilities and sensations a woman would like to feel if they were a man, but because writing het sex would remove the woman writer from the equation, they write their two favorite men. There is a distinct difference in tone between gay porn written by a man and slash ficion written by a woman that goes beyond individual style. I can't be universal but usually there's a great deal more emphasis on the nurturing/caring/emotionally driven sex. Women write slash characters as idealised men, nurturing/ emotionally sensitive etc - they want to see a masculine man in touch with his feminine side when it comes to intimate relationships. Something that their actual relationships may lack. I bet you'd find that a significant number of slash writers are either teens before they have a relationship, or 35-45+ women who, if they have a relationship, lack romance. And the 'romance' bit is crucial; the subjects of slash are by and large handsome actors who lend their looks to the character rather than their RL persona. Personally, I'm quite happy reading character slash, but RPS squicks me out because I think it's disrespectful to the actor.
On Shakespeare's stage the pretty boy actors were popular with the women theatre goers [who went in considerable numbers]and it was they who didn't want women on stage because it would mean losing 'the boyes in petticoats'. It's not the man pretending to be a woman that was erotic, but the man able to project qualities associated with the feminine, and therefore able to offer an idealization of romantic love. Attributes of chivalric love from the C14 read much like it and had little to do with the realities of being a knight.
By putting a non-homosexual character in a relationship with another 'straight' man, the writer doesn't classify them as gay; she leaves room for romantic aspirations that wouldn't exist by writing the character into a canon/het relationship by which she excludes herself. Of course some characterizations are wifully, often badly subverted, or even turned into Marty-Stu affairs - which are really unfortunate!

Sorry to jump in and lecture, origins/history of slash is one of my pet interests

[identity profile] deirdre-riordan.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 08:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, I'm going to respond from the bottom of your post up, because it seems easier. And I'm here through d_s in case you wondered.

why are so many of the slash writers women?
I didn't get through all the other comments, so excuse me if I'm repeating what's already been said.
I think a lot of it is because many, many heterosexual men are quite uncomfortable with homosexuality. Especially male homosexuality. They see it as some sort of a threat-- on a psychological level, a threat to their very maleness (with some insecurity about their own sexuality thrown in), and on a Darwinian level, a threat to the advancement of the species. And good lord, it's social conditioning, particularly in America. "Gay" was an insult at my elementary school. And I don't think all men have quite left that kind of thinking behind, no matter how "okay" they feel they are with homosexuality in real life.
But there's got to be something more to it, because most femslashers are female as well. For that matter, most fanfic writers are female. On that level, I think it's a matter of women being more comfortable with indulging their fantasies. It's not "socially acceptable" for men to read Harlequin romances, and I think romantic/erotic fanfiction kind of comes in on the same level for a lot of men. And I guess that kind of answers the homophobia questions too.

On emotional betrayal/violation:
I know that in canon, Professor Snape would never boink Harry in the Potions classroom, and that Kirk and Spock would never have blindingly passionate mind-meld sex, because none of these characters are gay in canon. And yet I write it, and I read it.
The funny thing is, I know it's completely canonically *possible* that Ron and Hermione might get it on in the Astronomy Tower, or that Uhura and Sulu did some roleplaying after the credits rolled on "The Naked Time." But I don't want to read about it in most cases, and I would never write it. Graphic het squicks me half to death, despite the fact that I am a (mostly) heterosexual woman.
So while fidelity to canon is very likely a big issue for many people, I don't think "this character would never do that" is the whole story. I think there's also an issue with sexual comfort levels, and what someone finds it exciting to read about-- their personal squicks and kinks and whatnot. And I guess that answers the "eww, gross" portion as well.

And well, that's really all I have to say. I hope this is at all useful.

[identity profile] laeb.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 09:30 pm (UTC)(link)
here via the [livejournal.com profile] daily_snitch :)

I'm a 21 yo female slash writer. Been wandering around three fandoms (LOTR RPS, LOTR FPS and HP) since I discovered ff and slash (just about the same time) over two years ago. All slash, all the time.

I think that female slashers, above a lot of things, consider that man-on-man sex is hot, smut-speaking. I used to read het - novels and short stories, not fanfic - but I barely do so anymore. There are numerous reasons I didn't give into het ff, however, the most significant ones would be that Mary-Sues and OFCs invaded all the fandoms and I don't particularly enjoy reading about these super-women (or hot, young girls who have all the powers, attract all the hot blokes, etc. etc.). With this comes the fact that many of the het writers are 14 yo girls who write poorly. Yes, it has to begin somewhere, I do not deny this fact, and with a bit of help they'll improve, but bad fics scare me to death. And then I have come to realise that most women slash writers are 'older' women. Some are straights, some are queers, some are a lil' bit of both but the fact is the have more experience and they know how ot write.

Oh, I was forgetting. Two guys together are turn me on. I don't mind my (male) partner to watch porn - hey I'll enven join him - or to 'read' *coughs* Playboy or Hustler if it turns him on. I'll read some hot smut featuring two males I love to imagine together (even though it couldn't be any firther fromm reality) and it'll turn me on. And then wE'll be able to play together.

[identity profile] puppy-tenchan.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 11:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Here via Daily Snitch.

The question remains – why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

Apart from the "Two guys are hot" answer, I can add my own, as I'm a woman, I slash, and I know I'm not the only one who has the following motives:

I write (and draw, and watch and read) slash, because I cannot have it in reality. I can go out and have sex with a man, and I can go out and have sex with a woman, but I can not become a man and have sex with another man. It's an experience that is unattainable, and like so often with us humans, the unattainable things are terribly attractive. So I at least identify with a male character and 'have the experience' through that character.

...and two guys getting it on is hot ;)

[identity profile] notrafficlights.livejournal.com 2004-10-22 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
'Fiction written by fans of a work in which characters who are not canonically gay are written with the assumption that they are'

I would also say it applies to canonically gay characters as well.

Sexuality seems to be something you are, not something you do, and thus when made into an overt part of a character is too prominent to simply glide past.

Ahhh, so true. At least in the majority of cultures around the world. There are some where gender and identity aren't defined by your sex, and who you shag. Unfortunately, they are definitely the minority. :( In the West, identity and gender are created to be tied to this closer, and so when heteronormative (exactly what it sounds like) boundaries are crossed, people tend to chuck a spack.

From my experience, most of the anti-slash sentiment I have seen has been homophobic. This citing canon-reasons, or purity of characters, are definitely in the minority in this regard.

[identity profile] notrafficlights.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 12:13 am (UTC)(link)
Ahh, woops, missed the last part.

why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

Ahh, so many reasons. Let's cover the major ones.

1) It's a matter of textual production. 99% of the media produced in our society is made predominantly by men. They write most of it, film most of it, draw most of it, star in most of it, etc etc. We are starting to change this, which is nice. Unfortunately, not fast enough. So women seek out alternative methods of turning the texts that they enjoy or are okay about into texts that they love and can identify with on a deeper level. They do this through many areas of fandom. That's why so much of fandom is female gendered.

2) Following on from that, fandom offers a safe area in a sort of virtual underground where women can therefore act out ideas and fantasies (both general and sexual) away from the judgements of society and the black pens of censorship. In the real world, "slash" is rarely published unless part of a larger book focused on something else, so it ends up as a gay love side-story (ala, Anne Rice books). I weep when I see the erotica shelves of Borders, full of boring schoolgirl-tales and crappy black corsets. The mainstream media has once again taken those things which were secret for a while, and fun, and actual turn-ons, and "normalised" them so they end up safe for wider consumption, and not a threat to husbands or boyfriends. They are a far cry from what actually is a turn-on in a lot of cases because of this.

3) So, again, following on from this, the One Great Taboo of male homosexuality becomes a turn-on for women because a) we're told we're not meant to be turned on by it (forbidden fruit and all that), b) two guys is just plain sexy, cos it is, and c) it's subversive because of attitudes and taboos in society, which make the forbidden-fruit thing even better, as well as the fact it's subverting a piece of the male-produced-media into the form we want it to be. If men, and even gay men, had the gender issues women have dealt with for the last, oh, I dunno, 10-7 thousand years, I'm sure there would be more straight guys who would write slash. But they haven't had those issues, so they don't.

4) On a more complex note on the gender issue, many researchers (such has Henry Jenkins and others) have theorised that the creation of the male gender in society as "Normal" or "Default" and everything else (including females) as "Other" leads to a desire to use this normalising technique, and turn it on its head. No matter what kind of heterosexual romance you're writing, there's always some expectation placed upon the gender roles of male/female in it. Many people find said gender roles restrictive and a plain old turn-off emotionally and physically. So if we want to write a love story, or a sex story, without those gender issues, we go to a pairing that we believe lacks it entirely- a pairing that has two "Default" creatures in it, without the "Otherness". This is why there's always an air of androgynisation in slash, even femmeslash. The roles of the characters become mutable and its easier for someone to move through the different roles, rather than in just a straight fantasy, for example, to be confined to female/male because of the gender roles used. Like I said, if men were the 'Other' and females were the 'Default', we'd probably see a reversal of this somehow in society, but they're not, so instead we have chicks writing slash.

So um, they're the main reasons I've found in both experience and readings on the subject. Hope this helps a little bit.

[identity profile] the-dark-twin.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 01:10 am (UTC)(link)
Hi Andrew,

I'm here via the Daily Snitch.

You have some great thoughts here, and expressed them so well – thanks for sharing them! I find it particularly interesting to read a man’s POV on this, because as you said, 95 % or more of the slash genre is made up of female readers and writers. And that, in itself, is part of its appeal to women, I think – it’s a big sisterhood that can agree on a certain set of ground rules simply because we all are women. We’ve made ourselves a comfort zone there.

While I don’t really have anything to add to your thoughts on why people who don’t like slash tend to react so strongly, you also asked

why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

I was asking myself the same question and I came up with some answers on my own LJ, here. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/the_dark_twin/2361.html#cutid1) I somehow wasn’t happy with the “usual” answers, so I worked through all those trying to find out whether they really applied to me, and why (or why not), and whether there wasn’t more behind it than simply finding two men together hot. I’m linking you to it because it’s way too long to post in here. Maybe you find one or the other aspect of it interesting. The examples are mostly taken from the Harry Potter fandom, but the underlying principles probably apply to slash in all fandoms. There are also a few links at the end for "further reading", if you're interested. :)

[identity profile] kleio-the-muse.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 02:23 am (UTC)(link)
Also here via [livejournal.com profile] daily_snitch

I'm quite certain somebody has already stated this as the bleeding obvious, but to me as a woman, the reason for writing/reading slash is simply that I indentify with one the book/film/show's characters, who happens to be male, and since I'm het myself, I could never write a sex scene between this person I identify with and another woman. So, as far as I can see, slash is actually just love stories written from the perspective of a het woman and featuring a man as the leading character.

Why I indentify with a male character and don't just go and find a woman to attach myself to, is also quite obvious. In the fandoms that I've been in, there just isn't such a woman that might appeal to me, whereas there is at least one man (or usually two men) whom I immediately fancy and to whom I can relate. Further, I'm not much of a girly girl, so the shift to the male POV is rather an easy one.

So far this could all stay below the G rate, for the mere indentification doesn't necessarily call for sex between the characters, and that is where it gets tricky. I still don't understand why it's sexy for a man to watch two women together, and the reasons are pretty much the same for women who enjoy reading/writing about two men, so that's an equal mystery to me. The only difference is, I think, that women prefer to be in charge of their characters, and while watching gay porn really does nothing for me, men do seem to enjoy their regular dosage of the 'lesbian spank inferno' and such. To most women it seems to be more about the characters, those very specific men and not just any two blokes.

The being-in-charge thing is quite interesting. I've actually been thinking about how I would react if I was to see, for instance, Jack/Will get it on in the next Pirates of the Caribbean film, and quite frankly, I'd be shocked. As much as I love reading about them, I really wouldn't want to see them in a relationship. That would be absurd and against canon and, for fuck's sake, against common sense! I can see the attraction between them and enjoy the slashers' takes on them, but all the time I'm full aware that what I read/write is fiction, fictive, even in the context of what were to begin with fictional characters - fanfiction is really twice as fictional as the original fiction, isn't it? To make a slash relationship canon would be almost a disappointment, as if the characters had been taken away from me and the wonderful world of makebelieve destroyed. Fanfiction is all about possibilities, not realities, even though there should be at least some logic behind the pairings made.

Anyway, that's a bit beside the point, sorry. And I really don't have much to say about why some people find slash so objectionable (the reasons you pondered were quite accurate, I'd say), again, sorry. Perhaps what you need is a male slasher's perspective on things, for we women do tend to repeat the same cliches over and over again:)

[identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 02:35 am (UTC)(link)
So, as far as I can see, slash is actually just love stories written from the perspective of a het woman and featuring a man as the leading character.

FWIW, back when I first discovered slash (this was 1983) that reason was the reason that everybody gave - just routinely: it was the given.

It didn't make sense to me (being neither a het woman nor in love with any of the guys I was writing about) and I think it didn't make sense to a lot of other slash fans, lesbian, bi, or het: but it must have had a fairly wide following at the time, and is - obviously - a real reason for writing/reading slash. It's just never been the only reason.

[identity profile] kleio-the-muse.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 03:37 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, dear me, no! It's definitely not the only reason, for nothing is and there's always a bunch of different reasons for different people behind every preference. To me, that's just the main thing, besides slash being sexy, of course, the reasons for which nobody can explain exhaustively, I think.

[identity profile] kiyuchan.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 04:43 am (UTC)(link)
I've wondered about this subject for a while, but from a slash fan's perspective. I have a friend who is completely not homophobic, but HATES slash. She is a fan of fanfiction, and is in fact a writer. The thing that puzzles me is that her explanation of her dislike is how un-canonical it is, and yet she writes AU for her fandoms, and in the Harry Potter fandom, only writes/reads Harry/Hermione stuff, which is to me, no more canonical than Harry/Draco. It is just NOT gonna happen. So I'm not sure if I trust her evaluation of her reasons.

[identity profile] valarltd.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 07:43 am (UTC)(link)
I see where you're coming from on some of it. I can't tell you the number of FF.N reviews I've gotten that say "yeah, sure, we can see Luke as Gay, but Han is too much of a MAN!"

I have a tendency to assume "Everyone is bi until proven otherwise." Unless they explicitly state a preference AND gross out at the thought of someone outside it, I assume they are open to experimentation.

And when male characters in canon are exchanging more intense eye-contact than either ever makes with the woman they're both in love with? What am I to do?

For me, slash is about exploring the subtext. What really happened when MU!Spock forced a mindmeld on McCoy (and you can't tell me that wasn't rape of a sort)? What was Luke going to say before he stopped himself on Hoth? Is the going brideprice for a farmboy the deed to the farm? Why, if there are three people in the room does Ilya only pour TWO glasses of champagne? Pointedly only two.

My husband sees the subtext and encourages me. Or as he puts it "I just pull the pin and roll the grenade under the tent."

My children see the subtext. My youngest daughter watches Smallville with me. She was watching an ep at age three and said "Clark love him Mommy." I agreed that Clark did love his Mommy. A bit later she added "Clark love him Daddy." I once more agreed that Clark did indeed love his daddy too. She watched a while longer and added "Clark love him!" and pointed at Lex. I said "that's Lex." "Clark love him Lex."

And she settled back down on my tummy (her favorite TV watching spot) quite content and watched the rest of the ep without commentary.

When it's that obvious, why not write it?

[identity profile] valarltd.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 08:20 am (UTC)(link)
Not exactly. even a 3 knows the kisses she gets from Mommy and the kisses Daddy gets are different. My point is, if Clark was a girl, and Lex treated him in the canon ways, it would be a grand romance.

That's one of my criteria for slash: "If one of these characters was oppositely sexed, would this be a romance? Or a marriage?"

There are strongly platonic same-sex friendships. (read that as "the very thought of slashing them makes my brain bleed with the mental acrobatics involved")

Indiana Jones-Sallah leaps to mind, as does Indy-Marcus. (as far as I know, I'm the only working IJ slasher, and I stick to Marcus and Henry quoting bits of poetry to each other) McCoy-Kirk. I might even add Jim West-Artemus to that category (haven't seen enough eps) And if it's not AU, I DON'T want to see Han/Chewbacca. The Dread Pirate Westley and Inigo. Jack Bauer and Tony. Even Brian-Michael from QAF (that one actually has potential to go sexual, but taking it there would violate 4 seasons of established interaction)

(that was a hard exercise)


[identity profile] velyrhorde.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 07:56 am (UTC)(link)
"I have a tendency to assume "Everyone is bi until proven otherwise."

*gasps* you mean everyone ISN'T bi?? yikes!! The problem with homophobes is that they're afraid of their bisexuality, ya know. *nods*

[identity profile] valarltd.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 08:23 am (UTC)(link)
There are those who practice the perversion of monosexuality on both sides.

Actually, that is the biggest problem most homophobes have. They think of gay folks, they think of gay sex, and they imagine having it and go "EWWWWWWW!" Which tends to lead to violence in males because they are resisting being made into a woman.


[identity profile] anais-rhys.livejournal.com 2004-10-23 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
After all, I have had no problem with homosexual characters and situations in other works of fiction where they were intrinsic parts...but I have still had a negative reaction to slash.

This to me is the the main problem; in the fandoms we pursue, because of cultural mores there just isn't enough "intrinsic" inclusion of homosexuality for gay people to identify with. I participate in slash because it's a way of identifying with my favorite characters in a more personal way. To me it is a personal violation when an intimate, loving, same sex relationship in a movie or series is shuffled off as platonic and a completely unconvincing het love interest is thrown in because that's what's expected. The sex does turn me on, but mostly for me it's about exploring what could be if the characters were allowed to pursue same sex relationships.

I think unfortunately that it is easy to be turned off from or offended by slash because of the enormity of badfic out there, but I think that is true of any fandom or genre therein. The stories I enjoy most are in character and realistic explorations of sexuality.

[identity profile] pinkdormouse.livejournal.com 2004-10-24 01:01 am (UTC)(link)
Commenting late, because [livejournal.com profile] executrix reminded me that I hadn't done so sooner.

Why I like the idea of slash: there aren't enough gay/bi/trans/whatever characters in the media that I enjoy. And practically none in leading roles. So fanfic rectifying that discrepancy should be a good thing, at least until the media producers finally catch up.

Why I get annoyed with most slash that's out there: not enough of it reads like an episode, with the character(s)'s sexuality as a side issue. While second string gay characters in the media tend to be ignored in terms of gaining (and possibly losing) significant others, in slash far too much of the focus is on getting characters together. And on how different it is to what they've done before.

There are notable exceptions: ie what I read more than other stuff. Buffyverse slash (and some het) involving Giles tends to at least acknowledge that there was something going on between him and Ethan, and if Oz is involved there's usually mention of him'n'Devon at the very least. And much 'Once Upon a Time in Mexico' slash works out from the premise that Sands comes across as very, very gay (his canonical gf is also way butcher than almost every other character).

But at the end of the day: I've gone back to writing original fiction, where my hero and various of his hangers-on can be as bi (or gay) as they damn well like.

I have an uneasy relationship with slash. Every time I get really pissed off and vow to stop reading all but a very few authors I trip over something new that really strikes a chord with me.

Gina

[identity profile] bronze-eagle.livejournal.com 2004-10-24 06:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Why I get annoyed with most slash that's out there: not enough of it reads like an episode, with the character(s)'s sexuality as a side issue.

*hugs* This is exactly how I feel about much of the slash I read, as well as a lot of the original fiction novels that feature gay or bi characters (sadly, I've seen almost no fiction that has trans characters as anything except comic relief). If I ever am able to publish original fiction, I want to write novels that feature characters going on adventures, having fun, getting into trouble, getting out of trouble, and generally living, who also happen to be gay/bi/trans/intersexed/whatever. That's why I love Francesca Lia Block, Lynn Flewelling, Neil Gaiman, and other such folk. ^^ People may have to deal with special issues when they're gay/bi/trans, but they also have to deal with everyday life.

[identity profile] pinkdormouse.livejournal.com 2004-10-24 10:21 pm (UTC)(link)
People may have to deal with special issues when they're gay/bi/trans, but they also have to deal with everyday life.

Exactly what I'm aiming at in my novel. The hero's sexuality isn't central to the plot, and the issues surrounding his various relationships (past, present and potential) through the course of the story have a lot more to do with the individuals, than with which gender each is. Well, being set in 1988 does influence what's going on with the 18yr old boy, but there would be almost as many moral (though not legal) implications if an academic was to get involved with a female fresher.

And the one and only fanfic I've found that deals with trans issues in a way, and had me nodding in agreement all the way through was 'Anatomical Correctness' (http://www.livejournal.com/users/hannahrorlove/92597.html) by [livejournal.com profile] hannahrorlove. Considering that at least one person has looked at the icon of Sands that I'm using now and asked who the woman was (it's actually Johnny Depp at his skinniest), the story does make a lot of sense.

And thanks for the hugs.

Gina

[identity profile] bronze-eagle.livejournal.com 2004-10-25 06:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I dunno if you're interested, but I recently read a wonderful autobiography by a trans woman (Jennifer Boylan) called "She's Not There." I highly reccomend it. (And that has nothing to do with the fact that she lives in my home state. Really. ^_^)

[identity profile] pinkdormouse.livejournal.com 2004-10-25 10:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks. Shall look out for that one in the library (I have a huge backlog of books, mostly provided by the lovely [livejournal.com profile] executrix, but I don't think that one's amongst them).

Gina

[identity profile] bronze-eagle.livejournal.com 2004-10-24 06:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I'll be taking my definition of slash as 'Fiction written by fans of a work in which characters who are not canonically gay are written with the assumption that they are'.

Um, commenting as I go, here, but I just wanted to say there may be a flaw in your starting definition. I would also consider a work of fanfiction "slash" if it involved a relationship between two canonically gay characters, such as Alec and Seregil in Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series. These two are in a canonical sexual relationship, but I would not consider a fanfiction portraying that relationship any less a "slash" fanfic than a Harry Potter/Draco Malfoy fanfic (two male characters who are not canonically gay).

--

Okay, I finished it. You brought up some interesting points. As a slash reader, I don't really feel that slash fanfiction challenges my interpretation of characters (though obviously I am biased :P).

Some slash fanfic has the characters more in character than other slash fanfic. I think that's true of all fanfiction, though. The content doesn't really matter so much as the author's skill. If an author could write Harry/Snape (most emphatically NOT cannon, nor do I believe it will ever be cannon) and get me to believe it is in character, then that fic has good characterization, and I would consider that a good author. Another author could write Ron/Hermione or Remus/Sirius, two pairings that I think are practically canon already, and still have the characters feel wrong or out of character.

In other words, pairing isn't what matters. What it really comes down to is the author's skill as a writer.

The question remains – why are so many of the slash writers women? Any suggestions?

This one is pretty easy if you think about it, IMHO. Why are there so many guys who like to watch lesbians having sex? I'm sure there are gay men who write slash, just like there are lesbians who watch lesbian porn. There are just fewer gays and lesbians out there, so there are naturally fewer gays and lesbians watching porn and writing slash. (BTW - I know of a few heterosexual men who write slash, and fairly explicit slash at that. Some people just like certain pairings, regardless of whether they're slash or het.)

Interestingly enough, Japan has a huge number of comic series - manga graphic novels - that feature "boy's love" or "yaoi," with men or boys in sexual relationships. These are almost exclusively aimed at women, not gay men.

Hm. Well, I hope that helped. Did I make sense? I tried to. ^^;; Interesting discussion, though. Thanks for bringing it up!

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