andrewducker (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
andrewducker) wrote2008-08-11 01:28 pm
andrewducker) wrote2008-08-11 01:28 pm
You are not in control
Over here there's an article on self-control, and how hard it is. It uses the idea of first and second-order preferences, where your have both preferences and preferences _about_ your preferences.
I have a first-order preference for cakes, sweets, and other miscellaneous sugary delights. I have a second order preference for healthy eating, which is a preference _about_ that first-order preference. I know, however, that second-order preferences are a hell of a lot weaker than first-order ones. It takes a huge amount of effort to modify a first-order preference, sustained over a long period of time. Unless the rewards are high and the pressure is sustained, it's incredibly likely that the first-order preference will be unchanged.
This is why diets don't work. You want to be skinny, but this is merely wishing, whereas your body _craves_ food, in a much stronger way than you wish you were thin.
The article neatly ties into neatly into a discussion I was having along similar lines with![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
is_not_well recently - about the way the unconscious is largely in charge of our decisions. The unconscious is what makes most of our decisions, it contains our cravings, our wants, our demands and our first-order preferences. Most people think of their conscious mind as being in control, but largely it sits there as a top level, observing what goes on. There are plenty of studies out there that show that the conscious mind actually finds out what we're going to do _after_ we've decided to do it.
This is a pain, especially as the conscious mind is the only bit that can actually apply logic to a situation. Not that logic is always the most useful way to approach something, but sometimes it is, and when we need to attack something deductively it actually takes up huge amounts of the brain's processing power, as the conscious mind wrests control of the decision-making power for a few moments. Only, frequently, to have it wrested straight back, as the subconscious decides that one more biscuit would be an _excellent_ idea.
The mistake most people make, especially control freaks, is in thinking that they can bludgeon their subconscious into submission, and force it to do what they want. This normally leads straight into all sorts of neurotic behaviour, as the unconscious mind uses all sorts of defence mechanisms to get its way.
The only way to get long term results is to train the subconscious. Think of it like a child, or an animal, or a neural network (whichever one seems like the better metaphor to you), and correct it slowly, giving it constant feedback of the correct kind to encourage it in the right direction. You can't retrain an animal quickly, and there are some things you can never train it to do, but given time, persistence, patience and from learning what methods work best with your particular pet, you can do a lot. And generally it works a lot better than shouting at it, and then sulking when it doesn't instantly learn what you want from it.
I have a first-order preference for cakes, sweets, and other miscellaneous sugary delights. I have a second order preference for healthy eating, which is a preference _about_ that first-order preference. I know, however, that second-order preferences are a hell of a lot weaker than first-order ones. It takes a huge amount of effort to modify a first-order preference, sustained over a long period of time. Unless the rewards are high and the pressure is sustained, it's incredibly likely that the first-order preference will be unchanged.
This is why diets don't work. You want to be skinny, but this is merely wishing, whereas your body _craves_ food, in a much stronger way than you wish you were thin.
The article neatly ties into neatly into a discussion I was having along similar lines with
is_not_well recently - about the way the unconscious is largely in charge of our decisions. The unconscious is what makes most of our decisions, it contains our cravings, our wants, our demands and our first-order preferences. Most people think of their conscious mind as being in control, but largely it sits there as a top level, observing what goes on. There are plenty of studies out there that show that the conscious mind actually finds out what we're going to do _after_ we've decided to do it.This is a pain, especially as the conscious mind is the only bit that can actually apply logic to a situation. Not that logic is always the most useful way to approach something, but sometimes it is, and when we need to attack something deductively it actually takes up huge amounts of the brain's processing power, as the conscious mind wrests control of the decision-making power for a few moments. Only, frequently, to have it wrested straight back, as the subconscious decides that one more biscuit would be an _excellent_ idea.
The mistake most people make, especially control freaks, is in thinking that they can bludgeon their subconscious into submission, and force it to do what they want. This normally leads straight into all sorts of neurotic behaviour, as the unconscious mind uses all sorts of defence mechanisms to get its way.
The only way to get long term results is to train the subconscious. Think of it like a child, or an animal, or a neural network (whichever one seems like the better metaphor to you), and correct it slowly, giving it constant feedback of the correct kind to encourage it in the right direction. You can't retrain an animal quickly, and there are some things you can never train it to do, but given time, persistence, patience and from learning what methods work best with your particular pet, you can do a lot. And generally it works a lot better than shouting at it, and then sulking when it doesn't instantly learn what you want from it.
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As far as I can see the argument is a simple cop out .
(and that is while I do *not* subscribe to the "weakness" theory of obesity).
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Because most of the people I've known with insulin problems indulge occasionally, despite knowing that it will cause problems. I don't know _anyone_ who has been able to go "I will stop X, which I like, right now, and never ever touch it again." Even you, just there, tell me that you eat slivers of cheese occasionally, despite knowing that it's bad for you.
Now can I see how it's a cop-out to describe something that I see all the time, and try to find a reason for it. If an alcoholic falls off the wagon it's not a "cop-out" to say that this is because it's _really, really hard_ and that it takes large amount of effort, sustained over long periods of time, to change them from "person who drinks" to "person who doesn't" and that them beating themselves up because they didn't instantly and permanently change themselves is incredibly counter-productive.
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I do. I can introduce you to at least 2 people who took a conscious decision to give up drinking alcohol and have never touched it again. And yes, they get cravings to just have one drink, particularly in certain social environments, but repeatedly refuse to allow themselves to do so.
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1) what caused this - a big event, or a long-term change.
2) Whether they cut down beforehand - not necessarily on purpose, but just because they weren't enjoying it as much.
Because I know people who've stopped things - but usually because they stopped enjoying them, they just hadn't realised that they'd stopped enjoying them until a bit after they had :->
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I only know one person who *does* behave that way and that's my mother who has many issues in which control and loss of control become part of a trajectory in which she finds pleasure.
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It's things that lack (near)instant feedback that cause the issues.
Look at the way normal people act towards biscuits/sweets - claiming they shouldn't, and then having "just one more".
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The UK has been a food hating society for a long time now. God forbid that they should talk to people who throughly enjoy their food (or anything else) while accepting limits or restrictions.
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You're talking about habits, not addictions.
The whole point of an addiction is that you usually *don't* enjoy it any more - that's habituation. But you have to keep doing it because STOPPING feels so bad.
With habits, having observed this thing no longer pleasures you, you can make an educated decision to stop, and though you may have to make changes to break the habit eg not walk home past the fish and chip shop/pub every night, stopping will not actually pain you physically.
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Yes. Shouldn't have mentioned alcoholism at all, as that wasn't what the original piece was about.
alcoholics
THis is imensely strong reinforcement and yet still often fails. But you do get support for it in the alcohol environment in a way you do almost nowhere else. no one says to a known acoholic, "go on have a treat, just have one", at least no one with any sense. This is not true eg of food or smoking. Also the downsides are so vast - almost no one gets to that place till they are as low as they can go ie either having or about to lose job, partner, kids etc.
Re: alcoholics
See, that's the type you hear about, people that go through the 'programs' - that's the usual story, the 'rock bottom' thing. IIRC, one of the base tenets of the whole AA movement. But there *are* folks whose lives are at a pretty normal place despite/except the heavy/habitual drinking, and who just quit cold, with no program, no support - and who just never touch another drop. You don't hear about them much. Maybe we should hear more...
sorry - I'll stop semi-hijacking the topic of this thread.
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Alcoholism is an addiction. Eating wheat is not.
Believe me, my diet is pretty effortless. If it weren't that sliver would lead to a chunk etc.
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I think you do. I did that with alchohol.
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Were you enjoying it? Did you actually feel an impulse to do it?
Because, certainly in this case, it can't be a willpower thing, because I know it took you a long time to get your diet under control - and that was with you having reactions to things in it. So why was it easy with alcohol, but not with food?
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It was easy with alcohol because you don't *have* to drink. You do have to eat.
Life overall is better without - but I didnt' know that til 6 months in.
Now caffeine - that's *evil* to try to quit. Think I have cracked it this time though...