Abortion

[andrewducker]

Taking some of the thoughts brought up by the post yesterday, I'm going to try and sum up some of my thoughts on the matter.
(Disclaimer 1: when I say "everyone", I'm bearing in mind that there are bound to be some people that feel likewise and actually mean "nearly, but not quite everybody)
(Disclaimer 2: Legalised abortions are necessary, because otherwise women have illegal ones, in pretty much the same numbers, only the women die in much larger amounts.  Which I think we can all agree is a bad thing)

Everyone agrees that killing babies that are out of the womb is wrong.
Most people are fine with contraception, the prevention of the sperm and egg coming together to form a zygote.

In between it comes down to a clash between the right of the mother to self-determination versus the right of the zygote/foetus not to die.

For some people the answer is simple - at any point after conception the foetus is alive and has the same rights as any other person, including the right not to be killed.  To them all abortion is wrong.

For others the answer is equally simple in the opposite direction.  If the foetus is inside the mother it's not alive yet, and therefore has no right to life.  Abortion at any point is therefore fine.

For the rest of us, it's a little trickier - it rests on some measure of life/sentience.  If, for instance, at 25 weeks gestation a baby is born prematurely, is it alive and does it have the right to life?  If so, then presumably it would have the same right while inside the mother.  Could you remove it's right to life by putting it back inside the mother (one imagines a ceasarian taking place with the baby being alive and then pre-natal once again as the baby is raised and lowered).

The simplest measure in the last case is time - after all the complexity and intelligence of the foetus increases over time in a very well understood manner.  Deciding on how many weeks old a foetus needs to be before it's "really alive" is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Poll #235527]

*feels nervous about hitting 'post'*
*awaits the end of the world*

Comments

[stillcarl.livejournal.com]

I chose At some point the foetus becomes sentient enough that it's rights override the mother's right to choose over all abortion is ok, the foetus has a right to life but it's always overridden by the mother's right to choose because I have problems with an eighth-month pregnant woman deciding to have an abortion for reasons other than her health.

Eight months is an extreme and unlikely example of course, but if a woman has the complete right to choose up until birth, it's a scenero that would be allowed.

[nickys.livejournal.com]

Possibly you don't understand that a late term abortion is a major surgical procedure for the woman.
It's not something that any sane person would decide to do just on a whim.

At that stage you either have to go through a full induced labour (which is medically the safest, but massively painful and psychologically traumatic) or have the equivalent of a caeasarian section, with all the attendant risks of any major abdominal surgery.

[stillcarl.livejournal.com]

I realise that. (I said it was extreme.) I was just using it as an example of why I ticked the box I did and not the mother's total right to choose box.

[nickys.livejournal.com]

It is alarming how many people still think of abortion as an easy option and that women are somehow getting out of their responsibilities by having one.
Even an early abortion has risks, and a late one is just horrendous for the woman.

If someone is sufficiently desparate to end a pregnancy that they are prepared to go through with all the risks of a late abortion then I really don't think anyone else has the right to forbid them to.

[stillcarl.livejournal.com]

I never said I thought abortion was an easy option.

As to being sufficiently desperate: People want to do any number of things which are forbidden. Being sufficiently desperate to do them usually doesn't override their forbiddeness, let alone allowing the sufficiently desperate to ask others for assistance in doing them. (Just an argument against "sufficiently desperate" being a suitable reason for allowing something.)

[nickys.livejournal.com]

There's a whole load of background issues here, both principle and pragmatic.

The principle, simply stated, is that a foetus cannot be given any independent rights without infringing on the rights of the woman carrying it.

The pragmatic point is that abortion has always existed and, unfortunately, probably will always exist. It's not a nice thing, it's not risk free and nobody in their right mind does it for trivial reasons. It's a last resort when all other options have failed.
As stated in the original post, if you want to reduce the abortion rate then the best thing to do is to reduce the need for abortions - for example by improving contraception education and by removing the social stigma against single parents and their children.

[stillcarl.livejournal.com]

All of that I can agree on.