Abortion

[andrewducker]

Taking some of the thoughts brought up by the post yesterday, I'm going to try and sum up some of my thoughts on the matter.
(Disclaimer 1: when I say "everyone", I'm bearing in mind that there are bound to be some people that feel likewise and actually mean "nearly, but not quite everybody)
(Disclaimer 2: Legalised abortions are necessary, because otherwise women have illegal ones, in pretty much the same numbers, only the women die in much larger amounts.  Which I think we can all agree is a bad thing)

Everyone agrees that killing babies that are out of the womb is wrong.
Most people are fine with contraception, the prevention of the sperm and egg coming together to form a zygote.

In between it comes down to a clash between the right of the mother to self-determination versus the right of the zygote/foetus not to die.

For some people the answer is simple - at any point after conception the foetus is alive and has the same rights as any other person, including the right not to be killed.  To them all abortion is wrong.

For others the answer is equally simple in the opposite direction.  If the foetus is inside the mother it's not alive yet, and therefore has no right to life.  Abortion at any point is therefore fine.

For the rest of us, it's a little trickier - it rests on some measure of life/sentience.  If, for instance, at 25 weeks gestation a baby is born prematurely, is it alive and does it have the right to life?  If so, then presumably it would have the same right while inside the mother.  Could you remove it's right to life by putting it back inside the mother (one imagines a ceasarian taking place with the baby being alive and then pre-natal once again as the baby is raised and lowered).

The simplest measure in the last case is time - after all the complexity and intelligence of the foetus increases over time in a very well understood manner.  Deciding on how many weeks old a foetus needs to be before it's "really alive" is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Poll #235527]

*feels nervous about hitting 'post'*
*awaits the end of the world*

Comments

[broin.livejournal.com]

I'd have to go with 'abortion early on is ok, but I'd really like people to be sterilised'.

I'm really stuck on foetuses having rights.

Re: abortion poll

[wolfieboy.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the foetus has a right to life".

Personally I think there should be an option "The mother always has the right to choose with possible input from the father."

Not having a womb or a uterus, I can only speak of this as a member of the voting public rather than as someone that it might apply to.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

I clicked "all abortion is OK", but actually I meant "all abortion should be legal" for the same reason. I think there is no abortion that is preferable to no unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

[nirikina.livejournal.com]

I remember at school in the fifth year some folks came to talk to use on the subject - there were two groups, one pro and one anti. It was mostly factual and not really about how potential mothers feel in these situations. There's so many opinions about this one.

What I feel most strongly about however is that I believe women should have absolute control over what happens inside their bodies.

[kimberly-a.livejournal.com]

I clicked "At some point the foetus becomes sentient enough that it's rights override the mother's right to choose", but with some reservations.

I personally feel that abortions should be freely available up to the point when the fetus might be reasonably expected to live on its own outside of the womb. Up to a certain point, I see the fetus as part of the mother's body (many pregnancies are miscarried, for example, by the mother's body for various reasons in the early months ... should miscarriages be illegal? are they manslaughter?). But after a certain point I consider the fetus an independent creature -- capable of independent survival -- despite its location.

So despite the fact that I do think that late-term abortions should be legal, I think they should be closely controlled, being performed only under extreme circumstances (the mother will die otherwise, the fetus is experiencing extreme pain, etc.).

Just my opinion.

[moniqueleigh]

I clicked "all abortion is ok, the foetus has a right to life but it's always overridden by the mother's right to choose" simply because if they're not, women will get abortions anyway.

My personal preference in the case of unwanted pregnancies:
1. Early abortion.
2. For whatever reason abortion has not happened before such time that the foetus could survive outside the woman's body (without extreme medical measures), the woman could have a C-section, etc, unless she is willing to carry to term. The child could then be put up for adoption.

However. It's not always going to be so rosy & pretty. So, I feel abortion does have to be completely legal at all stages. But I do think that there should be much information (written & otherwise) available letting women know their options. I applaud those clinics/doctors who do make such information available.

[wolflady26.livejournal.com]

I reject the notion that abortions should be legal for the reason that "people will do them anyway". There are many laws that people break, but that doesn't mean those laws serve no purpose. In fact, I don't believe that there is any law that has never been broken, so the logic of that point is incredibly slim. People speeding illegally are more dangerous than if speeding were legal and therefore more expected, but that doesn't mean that all speeding laws should be dropped. If there were a legal procedure for robbery, then fewer people might get injured in armed break-ins, but it seems silly to even suggest it.

I believe that a woman has the right to choose not to become pregnant. After that, it's too late.

I also think it's absolutely cruel for a woman to be able to not consider the wishes of the father. It might not be his body carrying the child, but it is still half his child.

I chose 'other' in your poll because I believe that extenuating circumstances, like a child that is so misformed that he cannot live on his own, or a pregnancy that threatens the life of the mother, could be valid reasons for abortion, just like I believe that there are extenuating circumstances under which killing a person is not murder (self-defense or mercy killings).

And I believe that giving an unwanted child up for adoption is an option that is often overlooked in the trauma of the moment, or discarded as a "Little Orphan Annie" hellish alternative.

[shannon_a]

My other answer is, "At some point the foetus becomes SELF-SUFFICIENT enough that its rights override the mother's right to choose"

[ladysisyphus.livejournal.com]

Boy, you took more flak for your post than I did! ...Which is to say, I'm flattered at having been quoted initially, and I appreciate the later poll.

I chose 'at some point the foetus becomes sentient enough that it's rights override the mother's right to choose,' because I believe that once the child could conceivably survive outside the mother, considerations should be made -- considerations that do not include, however, a ban on late-term ('partial-birth') abortions, which are rarely performed for elective reasions and most often performed at a consideration for the mother's life. What angered me so much about the bill that banned late-term abortions was the fact that those who supported the bill seemed up in arms about saving the babies from their cruel, capricious mothers who would damn them mere minutes before they were born hale and hardy, when what they were really doing was damning to death women whose late-term pregnancies go horribly wrong, who now have no medical recourse that involves weighing the life of the mother over the life of the child.

I continue in my strong support of sex education and birth control access, the latter for everyone and the former particularly for women; sarahq's comment to my post is pretty illustrative of why this is so important. Stop abortions not before they happen, but before they're even necessary at all, and then we can come back to a discussion about elective surgery and the right of the child versus the right of the mother. Before that time, it's nearly a moot point.

[stillcarl.livejournal.com]

I chose At some point the foetus becomes sentient enough that it's rights override the mother's right to choose over all abortion is ok, the foetus has a right to life but it's always overridden by the mother's right to choose because I have problems with an eighth-month pregnant woman deciding to have an abortion for reasons other than her health.

Eight months is an extreme and unlikely example of course, but if a woman has the complete right to choose up until birth, it's a scenero that would be allowed.

[missedith01.livejournal.com]

I chose abortion always OK, the foetus has no right to life.

I tend to take a more positive view of abortion and one which is, paradoxically, more concerned about the baby that might be born if an unwanted pregnancy was to continue. In my view, the existance of an unwanted child is a failure on all our parts in intervene. Better a late abortion than an unwanted baby.

In addition to that I believe unshakingly in a woman's right to choose what goes on in her own body. Therefore I admit of no interference from the medical profession, who I see as advisers and technicians in this scenario, nor, I'm afraid, do I recognise the right of the father at this juncture.

When the baby is born the mother and father should automatically have equal parental responsibility. But no-one else gets a say in what happens to my body on the grounds that we bumped genitals once. No sir!

Other

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

The woman always has the right to choose to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

At some point, however, terminating the pregnancy will actually be more of a threat to her health than going through a normal delivery would be.

Foetuses don't have rights.

[xquiq.livejournal.com]

I think abortion should always be legal, although I believe that abortion on the grounds that the woman does not want a child should take place as early in the pregnancy as possible.

As nickys said though, late term abortions are a very major procedure and not one that women are likely to take unless there are compelling reasons to do so. A pregnant woman should always be able to put her own health above that of the fetus, for example.

Ultimately I don't believe that the father should have any legal rights with regard to abortion. A child is not a right, even within a marriage type relationship. In an ideal situation the father would be fully aware of what was going on and have some input, but ultimately the decision lies with the woman only.

[taromazzy.livejournal.com]

"Everyone agrees that killing babies that are out of the womb is wrong."

Hey, if everyone agreed, 2 children a week wouldn't be murdered by their parents!

[derumi.livejournal.com]

As the chances of a baby being birthed through my sexual organs are very low, I don't feel qualified to choose one way or another, except to support any partners I may have that do need to make the decision.

[kpollock.livejournal.com]

Has to be 'other' as it's not a black and white issue and all other options given seem to be pretty black and white.

There is far more to it than sentience and rights. It's a bloody tricky one. Personally, I have always gone to lengths to avoid any possibility of having to personally deal with the issue, and that is probably my soundest opinion (and option) given that I cannot, logically, have an absolute yeah or nay opinion, or even one with some conditional logic that I fell woudl cover all situations.

Actually, I should have gone for the 8 foot pole option, but that would have been cowardly.