Interesting Links for 03-05-2023

[andrewducker]

1. Duke of Edinburgh: Edinburgh council urged not to recognise Royal pair's 'illegitimate' titles

(tags:edinburgh monarchy )

2. Keir Starmer breaks another pledge - this time on scrapping university tuition fees

(tags:labour university fees tuition )

3. How do people feel about bill-splitting in restaurants?

(tags:money friendship )

4. Brain Activity Decoder Can Reveal Stories in People's Minds

(tags:neuroscience brain stories )

5. Why can you use the 60+ Oyster card as voter ID, but not the 18+ Student Oyster card?

(tags:IDCards uk )

6. AI chatbots pass next intelligence milestone after researchers fail to find a single AI that would vote for Brexit

(tags:ai uk europe funny viaMyBrotherHugh )

7. Lothian Buses Service change from Sunday 28 May (some pretty major changes, including my bus no longer going home->work)

(tags:buses edinburgh transport )

Comments

Mind reading exists ...

[bens_dad]

4.So mind reading is scientifically proven to be possible
...
provided you are lying inside a brain scanner !

In some ways this is not new.
More than a decade ago a neural net could generate low quality video of what the subject was watching. There was no claim that the system understood the content, but that might avoid one step of chinese-whispers.

IIRC that used a hairnet-like sensor so you could be sitting up and not be inside a machine.

Re: Mind reading exists ...

[andrewducker]

It is quite incredible what they can manage. I hope it continues to improve!

[fub]

I keep being amazed at people going about their life without any kind of photo ID. Maybe it's the size of my country, but everyone I know has at least a European ID card, and often a full passport. You just can't get anywhere otherwise, and little children will often have their own passports.

[andrewducker]

Kids in the UK don't need passports unless they're leaving the country. I can't find anything called a "European ID card" - can you point me at an example of one?

[fub]

Yeah, the UK is big enough to make it viable to not leave the country, even on holidays!

So I've always had a full passport and so I don't have personal experience with ID cards. Your question prompted me to look into it, and it turns out my info was outdated. There used to be a European ID card, but that was discontinued in 2001. Now every country has their own ID card, and while it is not an official travel document like a passport, EER countries accept each others' ID cards as valid forms of ID. The Dutch ID card is recognised by even more countries, such as Turkey and Georgia.

[andrewducker]

Gotcha. The UK has no government-issued ID card. It does have a standard that cards can be verified against for things like voting ID though. But a fair number of people don't have one, because up until recently you've never needed one for anything.

[agoodwinsmith]

Canada doesn't have a gov't issued ID card - other than a passport - but each province has a province-issued Driver's Licence. While originally to prove that the driver had passed a driver's test, since one couldn't take the test until one was 16, it became a proof-of-age document - which rapidly morphed into a document that could prove one was old enough to buy liquor and go into establishments primarily for serving alcohol (pubs and lounges and most clubs/venues that have shows of live entertainment (bands etc)). It is a document highly-coveted by people under age. (Everybody in Canada knows what is meant by "underaged".)

From this it became an ID document to show for writing a cheque at the grocery store, and to pick up registered mail at the post office. It feels like I get asked to show it quite frequently - the last time was for accepting a delivery of cannabis to my door. It was to prove I was the person who ordered it, and yes, that I was over the age limit for purchase. No, sorry, the most recent time was for when I renewed the insurance on my car - proving that I am who I say I am.

This showing of ID is so often and so common, people do not fuss. Other documents are acceptable in many situations, but so few have a picture. There is even a Driver's Licence for people who don't drive - it looks the same and is issued by the same gov't agency, but it is called (in BC) the BC ID.

Hmm. I was just confirming - you don't need to be Canadian to get a BC Driver's Licence:
https://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/moving-bc/Pages/Moving-from-another-country.aspx

[calimac]

Interesting, as here in the US we assume that we've got one of the few countries large enough that people don't have to leave it. And indeed, relatively few US citizens have passports.

Standard ID cards in this country are issued by the individual states, and they're strictly commutative, i.e. you can use yours as you travel throughout the country. But if you move to another state, you have to get a new one. They're called driver's licenses, as that's their origin, but they've evolved into general ID cards, and there are versions for adults who can't drive.

[andrewducker]

86% of British people have a passport, apparently. And we're down to about 1 million adults who don't have some form of usable voting ID. So I don't know if it will be a big issue, we'll have to wait and see.

[cmcmck]

When I lived in Belgium I had an ID card- a simple paper thing back then, although I believe they're a lot more all singing all dancing these days.

Never actually had to show it in three years.

[andrewducker]

Oh yeah, most non-UK countries have an ID card.

[channelpenguin]

I have to show my German ID every time I pick up a parcel from the post office or other parcel pickup location. (AND the delivery card. No, showing the email won't do)

[cmcmck]

The PO here also expects ID but because the UK has never had ID cards they have to accept a broader range of photo ID stuff- I tend to use my driving licence.

[simont]

#6: the headline is funny, but I think Newsthump seems to be the British version of The Onion, in that the headline already contains the one worthwhile joke, so once you've laughed at it there's no need to read the article.

[andrewducker]

I would tend to agree. Although, if anything, The Onion has articles which are worth actually reading more often.

[anna_wing]

The article on bill-splitting is very sensible. In these parts, at least one of my friendship groups has had to gently remind members who've been...elsewhere for too long that that's not how we do things. Though of course, big groups usually eat communally, with shared dishes, so the issue of who ate what does not arise that often, and an equal split is automatic.

[autopope]

A friend and I do coffee together roughly every two weeks. Rather than split the bill, we alternate paying -- we have mostly the same amount each time, so it works out equitably.

However I've been burned badly by free riders in restaurant groups before now (especially people ducking out to "catch the last train home" before everyone else has finished, and throwing down rather less cash than their meal cost -- relying on it being rude to count banknotes in front of everybody).

[conuly]

If the UK is like the US, you have more trouble getting people into voting booths than anything else. Why all this drummed up hysteria about imaginary fraud?

[andrewducker]

Some say that it's because of the million-odd people who don't have ID skew younger. Others because they want everyone to have ID. Others because they worry about "What if?" a lot. I've not seen any decent justification for it.

[adrian_turtle]

In the US, the people without ID tend to be young, poor, and most often racial minorities. The voting patterns of these groups are fairly predictable, and that's why there is so much desire to stop them from voting.

[autopope]

This applies to the UK too. Which is why the Tories are intent on copying Republican voter suppression policies.

This may come back to bite them, though. A lot of older retirees (who overwhelmingly vote Tory) don't travel abroad and no longer drive, so their photo IDs have lapsed. And allowing Old Person's Travelcards as proof of ID doesn't really work for those who live in a nursing home or in public transport deserts.

Their attempts to import US-style gerrymandering by rigging the Boundary Commission is a lot more worrying to me in the long term.

[mountainkiss]

I play for the other team on the bill splitting, I’m afraid: partly because I have a loathing of articles that pretend the author’s personal preference has any intrinsic normative value, and partly because I do not drink and don’t see why I should have to split the bill equally with those who do. But I do say very clearly up front that I am not up for this, so that people can decide if they want to opt out of dinner (or want me to) before it’s too late.

[andrewducker]

She does say "Similarly, if someone is not drinking – the drinkers would split the alcohol among themselves.", So you're not completely at odds.

[mountainkiss]

Fair comment - I missed that bit, thank you for correcting me!

[andrewducker]

I don't, personally, have an objection to everyone paying for themselves. Especially in small groups it rarely takes long to calculate, and it's not for me to tell people how much monetary difference is meaningful to them.

[mountainkiss]

I'll admit I was puzzled that you posted this article. It seemed so egregiously "my opinion is Right!" rather than actually conveying any meaningful information.

[andrewducker]

To get an answer to the question I titled it with :⁠-⁠)

I think my thought process was something like "I don't agree with this, but it'll serve as a good prompt to see what other people think." - but it was over 24 hours ago now, so anything might have happened!

[rhythmaning]

I'll admit I was thinking of you as I read that article!

Generally, I'm in the split-it-equally camp, reckoning it balances it overall, and I'm happy to pick up the tab for things for those less solvent than me. And quite often I'll suggest I pay more after a meal because I've eaten or, more likely, drunk more than others around the table.

But clearly there are situations in which everyone picking up their own tab makes sense.

Just out of interest (and you're under no compunction to respond!), did you do the same with J? I was wondering whether the nature of your relationship made a difference.

[mountainkiss]

So he and I paid each other to the penny (and still do), which suited us both brilliantly. But K hated it with a passion and IIRC so did you. At least one difference is that money transfer is now so very very easy.

[rhythmaning]

I wouldn't say I hated it, though it's certainly not my preference. I understood its necessity.

[bens_dad]

The article seems to be about two friends going out for a meal. I can see her logic there or when two families go out to eat together, though I cannot remember
when such a group attempted to split a bill, rather than fight over whose turn it was to pay the whole thing. Plus the issue of different numbers and ages of children.

I am more likely to have the bill-splitting problem with an office get-together or if the evening class goes out together on the last night of the course, where the proposed sanction, ending the friendship, is not an option.

With a big group you don't even see what the other end of the table is eating and may not get to talk to them, so splitting the bill doesn't seem right there either.

3. On bistromathics

[ng_moonmoth]

My feeling about this is very contextual. Doing bistromathics to haggle over pennies doesn't accomplish much other than leaving a goodly fraction of the table upset. But if someone isn't feeling that hungry and orders an appetizer or two while others are ordering three courses, it seems unfair to stick that former person with an equal share of the tab. Likewise for those who enjoy a pricey bottle of wine with dinner -- unfair to ask the rest of the group to subsidize that purchase.

My general rule is that any time the total price of someone's order differs from the split price by more than the least expensive food item, their contribution should be figured separately. No matter which direction. Then split the rest evenly. It helps that a fair number of people I dine with, myself included, can readily calculate tax and tip amounts without mechanical assistance.

[simont]

There's perhaps another angle that has to do with whether someone wants an extra-expensive thing or needs it.

For example, if I'm part of a large group ordering pizza from Domino's, I have to order the gluten-free option, which is noticeably more expensive than their standard wheat-based pizzas. When this has happened, my friends have generally not made me pay the extra cost of my expensive pizza all by myself, on the grounds that my medical needs aren't my fault. But it wouldn't seem inconsistent to me if they took a totally different attitude to someone ordering a double-price thing simply because they felt like it.

3. Bill Splitting

[snippy]

It's normal where I am to tell the server before ordering if the parties want separate checks. Some restaurants don't want to provide this service and say so in obvious ways - on the menu, and when you make a reservation, but also the server will say so when you request it.

[wildeabandon]

I have an intense and irrational aversion to bistromathics. To be honest I don't even like splitting the bill equally, although I will grudingly conceed to it in larger groups at more expensive restaurants.

With anyone I dine with regularly enough that we can keep track of whose turn it is, and who can comfortably afford it, I tend to take turns. Where it's a one off or someone I know is less well off than me, I offer to treat, and where it's a group at somewhere reasonably cheap I just pay the bill and accept people chipping in iff they want to.

[liv]

Bill-splitting: It's really necessary if some people in the group are poor and have carefully budgeted to be able to have one treat with friends. And yes, it's irritating to people for whom £5 (or insert relevant amount scaled accordingly) here or there doesn't make much difference and it'll all come out in the wash. But I think that's the lesser evil, compared to embarrassing someone who can't afford to subsidize others, or who will chip in more than they can afford and then get into financial trouble to avoid such embarrassment.

[andrewducker]

I'd definitely agree that people's comfort is the priority.

[marymac]

I've always loved the Irish Film Institute bar approach to this, which is to give you a slip with each request/order and then if you're splitting you can gather up what belongs to you or you can count it all up and divide.

If people aren't all staying to the end it has at least once led to a fully qualified accountant screaming handing the staff a pile of euros and receipts with a wail of "It's more than we owe, I'm sure", but it works.