On unions, both Kingdom or European

[andrewducker]

I occasionally see a discussion which goes something like "How can you be in favour of staying in Europe and also of Scotland leaving the UK. Surely you're either in favour of closer ties to other countries or you aren't?"

And I am, frankly, baffled by this.

Because I am in favour of being in close ties which are well-structured, improve people's rights and working conditions, and are an overall positive to the lives of the people within them.

And I consider that the EU generally manages that. It's not perfect, but the benefits seem to be much larger than the costs.

And, as far as I can see, the UK doesn't. The things we'd lose from being a member are definitely _there_, but compared to not having welfare ruled from Westminster, not being stuck under a pair of parties who are anti-reform, anti-immigrant, and frequently illiberal*, I'd be delighted to get out.

If the EU went too far in a direction I didn't like, I'd vote to get out of that too. My support is not tribal, it's based on weighing up pros and cons of each union, and finding Europe acceptable, and the UK not.

*I am in no way convinced that Jack Straw was much better than Theresa May. I have forgotten neither ID cards or the protests against the Digital Economy Act.

Comments

[doug]

I can see where you're coming from here. As it happens I'm pro both unions, but on balance of argument, not out of some general principle of wanting more unification.

It reminds me about arguments about Government regulation and laws, where the assumption seems to be that one must either be in favour of more of it or less of it in a sweeping sense. (There's a lot of this in American political discourse particularly.) I think the more useful distinction is whether it's good or bad in its effects. We should have more good regulation and less bad regulation, and it seems odd to me that this is a strange way of seeing it.

[wolflady26]

The discussion about taxes is similar, too. People argue that there should be higher or lower taxes, but no one argues that we should have a higher return on our tax dollar, which is really the crux of the issue.

[cmcmck]

There are times I deeply regret not staying that extra few months and getting Belgian citizenship................

[steepholm]

I don't think Jack Straw is on the Labour front bench. I've never heard Corbyn make an anti-immigrant speech.

Of course, illiberal Labour politicians may return - but the same is true of any party, including those in Scotland.

[andrewducker]

Labour can fuck off with their anti-immigrant bollocks.

Labour can fuck off with their anti-immigrant lies.

And, of course, Labour can fuck off for not backing reform of the political system so that people can usefully give their vote to someone who actually represents their views, rather than upholding the effective duopoly.

Because, in Scotland, if a party starts doing things I dissaprove of, I can vote for someone else without that effectively throwing it away. In England, people don't have that option, and Labour seem staggeringly happy with that.